Are $log_1 1$ and $log_0 0$ indeterminate forms?












1












$begingroup$


Are $log_1 1$ and $log_0 0$ indeterminate forms?



Whenever I ask someone about these indeterminate forms, they deny by saying either $log$ is neither defined at base $0$ nor at base $1$, or they say $log$ is a function so these must not be included in fundamental indeterminates.



But, we know division by zero is not defined, yet $0/0$ is indeterminate; and many others. And, actually, $log$ is more a binary-operator that is the inverse operation of power/exponent operator.










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$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Implicitly, you are saying that you do not believe that $log_0(x)$ and $log_1(x)$ are undefined. If they are not undefined, what are their definitions?
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Jan 19 at 19:40










  • $begingroup$
    @Xander Henderson i am saying division by zero is yet undefined, but it gets more complicated, when numerator is also zero
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:43










  • $begingroup$
    No, it really doesn't get any more complicated. $frac{0}{0}$ is an undefined mathematical expression.
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Jan 19 at 19:44










  • $begingroup$
    that's definitely not true, 0/0 and other indeterminants are so important that whole branch of limits grew out of them, they can't be simply undefined
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:50






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    thnx @Blue for help
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:07
















1












$begingroup$


Are $log_1 1$ and $log_0 0$ indeterminate forms?



Whenever I ask someone about these indeterminate forms, they deny by saying either $log$ is neither defined at base $0$ nor at base $1$, or they say $log$ is a function so these must not be included in fundamental indeterminates.



But, we know division by zero is not defined, yet $0/0$ is indeterminate; and many others. And, actually, $log$ is more a binary-operator that is the inverse operation of power/exponent operator.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Implicitly, you are saying that you do not believe that $log_0(x)$ and $log_1(x)$ are undefined. If they are not undefined, what are their definitions?
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Jan 19 at 19:40










  • $begingroup$
    @Xander Henderson i am saying division by zero is yet undefined, but it gets more complicated, when numerator is also zero
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:43










  • $begingroup$
    No, it really doesn't get any more complicated. $frac{0}{0}$ is an undefined mathematical expression.
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Jan 19 at 19:44










  • $begingroup$
    that's definitely not true, 0/0 and other indeterminants are so important that whole branch of limits grew out of them, they can't be simply undefined
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:50






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    thnx @Blue for help
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:07














1












1








1





$begingroup$


Are $log_1 1$ and $log_0 0$ indeterminate forms?



Whenever I ask someone about these indeterminate forms, they deny by saying either $log$ is neither defined at base $0$ nor at base $1$, or they say $log$ is a function so these must not be included in fundamental indeterminates.



But, we know division by zero is not defined, yet $0/0$ is indeterminate; and many others. And, actually, $log$ is more a binary-operator that is the inverse operation of power/exponent operator.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Are $log_1 1$ and $log_0 0$ indeterminate forms?



Whenever I ask someone about these indeterminate forms, they deny by saying either $log$ is neither defined at base $0$ nor at base $1$, or they say $log$ is a function so these must not be included in fundamental indeterminates.



But, we know division by zero is not defined, yet $0/0$ is indeterminate; and many others. And, actually, $log$ is more a binary-operator that is the inverse operation of power/exponent operator.







indeterminate-forms






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Jan 19 at 19:45









Blue

48.5k870154




48.5k870154










asked Jan 19 at 19:38









PranshuKhandalPranshuKhandal

1348




1348








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Implicitly, you are saying that you do not believe that $log_0(x)$ and $log_1(x)$ are undefined. If they are not undefined, what are their definitions?
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Jan 19 at 19:40










  • $begingroup$
    @Xander Henderson i am saying division by zero is yet undefined, but it gets more complicated, when numerator is also zero
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:43










  • $begingroup$
    No, it really doesn't get any more complicated. $frac{0}{0}$ is an undefined mathematical expression.
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Jan 19 at 19:44










  • $begingroup$
    that's definitely not true, 0/0 and other indeterminants are so important that whole branch of limits grew out of them, they can't be simply undefined
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:50






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    thnx @Blue for help
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:07














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Implicitly, you are saying that you do not believe that $log_0(x)$ and $log_1(x)$ are undefined. If they are not undefined, what are their definitions?
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Jan 19 at 19:40










  • $begingroup$
    @Xander Henderson i am saying division by zero is yet undefined, but it gets more complicated, when numerator is also zero
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:43










  • $begingroup$
    No, it really doesn't get any more complicated. $frac{0}{0}$ is an undefined mathematical expression.
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Jan 19 at 19:44










  • $begingroup$
    that's definitely not true, 0/0 and other indeterminants are so important that whole branch of limits grew out of them, they can't be simply undefined
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:50






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    thnx @Blue for help
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:07








1




1




$begingroup$
Implicitly, you are saying that you do not believe that $log_0(x)$ and $log_1(x)$ are undefined. If they are not undefined, what are their definitions?
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Jan 19 at 19:40




$begingroup$
Implicitly, you are saying that you do not believe that $log_0(x)$ and $log_1(x)$ are undefined. If they are not undefined, what are their definitions?
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Jan 19 at 19:40












$begingroup$
@Xander Henderson i am saying division by zero is yet undefined, but it gets more complicated, when numerator is also zero
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 19:43




$begingroup$
@Xander Henderson i am saying division by zero is yet undefined, but it gets more complicated, when numerator is also zero
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 19:43












$begingroup$
No, it really doesn't get any more complicated. $frac{0}{0}$ is an undefined mathematical expression.
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Jan 19 at 19:44




$begingroup$
No, it really doesn't get any more complicated. $frac{0}{0}$ is an undefined mathematical expression.
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Jan 19 at 19:44












$begingroup$
that's definitely not true, 0/0 and other indeterminants are so important that whole branch of limits grew out of them, they can't be simply undefined
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 19:50




$begingroup$
that's definitely not true, 0/0 and other indeterminants are so important that whole branch of limits grew out of them, they can't be simply undefined
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 19:50




1




1




$begingroup$
thnx @Blue for help
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 20:07




$begingroup$
thnx @Blue for help
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 20:07










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















2












$begingroup$

I think that your difficulty comes from a confusion regarding what an "indeterminate form" is. Indeterminate forms show up in analysis via naive substitution when computing limits. For example, we might naively compute
$$
lim_{xto 0} frac{x^2}{x}
= frac{lim_{xto 0} x^2}{lim_{xto 0} x}
= frac{0}{0}.
$$

Since this last expression is undefined, we might say that the limit is "indeterminate of the form $frac{0}{0}$." When this kind of naive substitution leads to an undefined expression, it is necessary to be a bit more clever in the evaluation of the limit. In this case,
$$
lim_{xto 0} frac{x^2}{x}
= lim_{xto 0} x
= 0.
$$

Techniques for working with indeterminate forms include results such as L'Hospital's rule, applying algebraic transformations, and so on.



In the case of "the logarithm base 0", $log_0(x)$ is undefined. This expression doesn't make sense. If this expression were defined, then it must be equal to some number, say $y$. Then
$$ log_0(x) = y implies x = 0^y = 0. $$
But $0^y = 0$ for any positive value of $y$. Hence the expression $log_0(x)$ is not well defined, as there is a not a unique value of $y$ which gets the job done. On the other hand, we can consider limits of expressions of the form $log_b(a)$ as $b$ tends to zero and $a$ either tends to zero or diverges to infinity. Such limits can be said to be "indeterminate of the form $log_0(0)$" or "indeterminate of the form $log_0(infty)$, but this does not mean that they are equal to either of these expressions (anymore than $lim_{xto 0} x^2/x = 0/0$).



Such limits typically require more careful analysis, again using algebraic tools, L'Hospital's rule and other results from analysis, bounding with estimates, or direct $varepsilon$-$delta$ style computation. Limits involving logarithms are discussed in greater detail in J.G.'s answer.





In short, when we say that "the limit is indeterminate of the form $X$", we are saying that if we try to evaluate the limit by naive substitution, then we get the expression $X$, where $X$ is some undefined expression like $frac{0}{0}$, $log_0(0)$, or $1^infty$. Such limits cannot be evaluated by naive substitution, and require other techniques.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    WOW! by the way i am struggling now i think
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:15










  • $begingroup$
    so basically it needs more analysis
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:16










  • $begingroup$
    all this means 0/0 is undefined
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:18










  • $begingroup$
    thnx thnx thnx, really learnt something new
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:19










  • $begingroup$
    :) wow really thank you, thnx for breaking the mirage
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:19





















1












$begingroup$

Suppose $f,,gto 1$ as $xto 0$. How can we vary $lim_{xto 0}log_f g$? We can take $f=exp x,,g=exp cx$ to get any value $cinBbb R$ we like, or to get $pminfty$ we can use $f=exp x^2,,g=exppm 1$.



Suppose $f,,gto 0$ as $xto 0$. How can we vary $lim_{xto 0}log_f g$? We can take $f=x,,g=x^c$ to get any value $cinBbb R^+$ we like, or to get $infty$ we can use $f=x,,g=x^{1/x^2}$. We can't achieve negative limits because $ln f,,ln gto -infty$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    wow! i didnt even noticed that, that's amazing, i didnt thought about there ranges
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:57










  • $begingroup$
    @PranshuKandal This limit-theoretic treatment explains all the indeterminate forms.
    $endgroup$
    – J.G.
    Jan 19 at 19:58










  • $begingroup$
    thnx @J.G. for help
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:05










  • $begingroup$
    got that as zero to the power of any non-positive number is not defined, log 0 base 0 can only be positive.
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:11










  • $begingroup$
    @PranshuKhandal $log_0(0)$ is undefined. If $f(x) to 0$ and $g(x) to 0$, then $lim log_{f(x)}(g(x))$ is (naively) "indeterminate of the form $log_0(0)$", which may be nonnegative, infinite, or undefined. Because the limit is of an indeterminate form when evaluated naively, deeper analysis is required.
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Jan 19 at 20:16



















0












$begingroup$

Let $a=log_1(1)$ and suppose $a$ exists, then $$a=log_1(1)iff 1^a=1$$ so $a$ can be any number. Similarly for $b=log_0(0)iff 0^b=0$






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    does it not prove them indeterminant?? and yes, nice name you have got :)
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:47










  • $begingroup$
    Indeterminant in the sense that any value works, both $a$ and $bneq 0$ can take any value.
    $endgroup$
    – cansomeonehelpmeout
    Jan 19 at 19:51










  • $begingroup$
    can we add them into the list of our fundamental indeterminants
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:53










  • $begingroup$
    if not? them why
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:53










  • $begingroup$
    i think I've got the answer, but which do i accept, help me out
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:55











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3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes








3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









2












$begingroup$

I think that your difficulty comes from a confusion regarding what an "indeterminate form" is. Indeterminate forms show up in analysis via naive substitution when computing limits. For example, we might naively compute
$$
lim_{xto 0} frac{x^2}{x}
= frac{lim_{xto 0} x^2}{lim_{xto 0} x}
= frac{0}{0}.
$$

Since this last expression is undefined, we might say that the limit is "indeterminate of the form $frac{0}{0}$." When this kind of naive substitution leads to an undefined expression, it is necessary to be a bit more clever in the evaluation of the limit. In this case,
$$
lim_{xto 0} frac{x^2}{x}
= lim_{xto 0} x
= 0.
$$

Techniques for working with indeterminate forms include results such as L'Hospital's rule, applying algebraic transformations, and so on.



In the case of "the logarithm base 0", $log_0(x)$ is undefined. This expression doesn't make sense. If this expression were defined, then it must be equal to some number, say $y$. Then
$$ log_0(x) = y implies x = 0^y = 0. $$
But $0^y = 0$ for any positive value of $y$. Hence the expression $log_0(x)$ is not well defined, as there is a not a unique value of $y$ which gets the job done. On the other hand, we can consider limits of expressions of the form $log_b(a)$ as $b$ tends to zero and $a$ either tends to zero or diverges to infinity. Such limits can be said to be "indeterminate of the form $log_0(0)$" or "indeterminate of the form $log_0(infty)$, but this does not mean that they are equal to either of these expressions (anymore than $lim_{xto 0} x^2/x = 0/0$).



Such limits typically require more careful analysis, again using algebraic tools, L'Hospital's rule and other results from analysis, bounding with estimates, or direct $varepsilon$-$delta$ style computation. Limits involving logarithms are discussed in greater detail in J.G.'s answer.





In short, when we say that "the limit is indeterminate of the form $X$", we are saying that if we try to evaluate the limit by naive substitution, then we get the expression $X$, where $X$ is some undefined expression like $frac{0}{0}$, $log_0(0)$, or $1^infty$. Such limits cannot be evaluated by naive substitution, and require other techniques.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    WOW! by the way i am struggling now i think
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:15










  • $begingroup$
    so basically it needs more analysis
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:16










  • $begingroup$
    all this means 0/0 is undefined
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:18










  • $begingroup$
    thnx thnx thnx, really learnt something new
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:19










  • $begingroup$
    :) wow really thank you, thnx for breaking the mirage
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:19


















2












$begingroup$

I think that your difficulty comes from a confusion regarding what an "indeterminate form" is. Indeterminate forms show up in analysis via naive substitution when computing limits. For example, we might naively compute
$$
lim_{xto 0} frac{x^2}{x}
= frac{lim_{xto 0} x^2}{lim_{xto 0} x}
= frac{0}{0}.
$$

Since this last expression is undefined, we might say that the limit is "indeterminate of the form $frac{0}{0}$." When this kind of naive substitution leads to an undefined expression, it is necessary to be a bit more clever in the evaluation of the limit. In this case,
$$
lim_{xto 0} frac{x^2}{x}
= lim_{xto 0} x
= 0.
$$

Techniques for working with indeterminate forms include results such as L'Hospital's rule, applying algebraic transformations, and so on.



In the case of "the logarithm base 0", $log_0(x)$ is undefined. This expression doesn't make sense. If this expression were defined, then it must be equal to some number, say $y$. Then
$$ log_0(x) = y implies x = 0^y = 0. $$
But $0^y = 0$ for any positive value of $y$. Hence the expression $log_0(x)$ is not well defined, as there is a not a unique value of $y$ which gets the job done. On the other hand, we can consider limits of expressions of the form $log_b(a)$ as $b$ tends to zero and $a$ either tends to zero or diverges to infinity. Such limits can be said to be "indeterminate of the form $log_0(0)$" or "indeterminate of the form $log_0(infty)$, but this does not mean that they are equal to either of these expressions (anymore than $lim_{xto 0} x^2/x = 0/0$).



Such limits typically require more careful analysis, again using algebraic tools, L'Hospital's rule and other results from analysis, bounding with estimates, or direct $varepsilon$-$delta$ style computation. Limits involving logarithms are discussed in greater detail in J.G.'s answer.





In short, when we say that "the limit is indeterminate of the form $X$", we are saying that if we try to evaluate the limit by naive substitution, then we get the expression $X$, where $X$ is some undefined expression like $frac{0}{0}$, $log_0(0)$, or $1^infty$. Such limits cannot be evaluated by naive substitution, and require other techniques.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    WOW! by the way i am struggling now i think
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:15










  • $begingroup$
    so basically it needs more analysis
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:16










  • $begingroup$
    all this means 0/0 is undefined
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:18










  • $begingroup$
    thnx thnx thnx, really learnt something new
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:19










  • $begingroup$
    :) wow really thank you, thnx for breaking the mirage
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:19
















2












2








2





$begingroup$

I think that your difficulty comes from a confusion regarding what an "indeterminate form" is. Indeterminate forms show up in analysis via naive substitution when computing limits. For example, we might naively compute
$$
lim_{xto 0} frac{x^2}{x}
= frac{lim_{xto 0} x^2}{lim_{xto 0} x}
= frac{0}{0}.
$$

Since this last expression is undefined, we might say that the limit is "indeterminate of the form $frac{0}{0}$." When this kind of naive substitution leads to an undefined expression, it is necessary to be a bit more clever in the evaluation of the limit. In this case,
$$
lim_{xto 0} frac{x^2}{x}
= lim_{xto 0} x
= 0.
$$

Techniques for working with indeterminate forms include results such as L'Hospital's rule, applying algebraic transformations, and so on.



In the case of "the logarithm base 0", $log_0(x)$ is undefined. This expression doesn't make sense. If this expression were defined, then it must be equal to some number, say $y$. Then
$$ log_0(x) = y implies x = 0^y = 0. $$
But $0^y = 0$ for any positive value of $y$. Hence the expression $log_0(x)$ is not well defined, as there is a not a unique value of $y$ which gets the job done. On the other hand, we can consider limits of expressions of the form $log_b(a)$ as $b$ tends to zero and $a$ either tends to zero or diverges to infinity. Such limits can be said to be "indeterminate of the form $log_0(0)$" or "indeterminate of the form $log_0(infty)$, but this does not mean that they are equal to either of these expressions (anymore than $lim_{xto 0} x^2/x = 0/0$).



Such limits typically require more careful analysis, again using algebraic tools, L'Hospital's rule and other results from analysis, bounding with estimates, or direct $varepsilon$-$delta$ style computation. Limits involving logarithms are discussed in greater detail in J.G.'s answer.





In short, when we say that "the limit is indeterminate of the form $X$", we are saying that if we try to evaluate the limit by naive substitution, then we get the expression $X$, where $X$ is some undefined expression like $frac{0}{0}$, $log_0(0)$, or $1^infty$. Such limits cannot be evaluated by naive substitution, and require other techniques.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



I think that your difficulty comes from a confusion regarding what an "indeterminate form" is. Indeterminate forms show up in analysis via naive substitution when computing limits. For example, we might naively compute
$$
lim_{xto 0} frac{x^2}{x}
= frac{lim_{xto 0} x^2}{lim_{xto 0} x}
= frac{0}{0}.
$$

Since this last expression is undefined, we might say that the limit is "indeterminate of the form $frac{0}{0}$." When this kind of naive substitution leads to an undefined expression, it is necessary to be a bit more clever in the evaluation of the limit. In this case,
$$
lim_{xto 0} frac{x^2}{x}
= lim_{xto 0} x
= 0.
$$

Techniques for working with indeterminate forms include results such as L'Hospital's rule, applying algebraic transformations, and so on.



In the case of "the logarithm base 0", $log_0(x)$ is undefined. This expression doesn't make sense. If this expression were defined, then it must be equal to some number, say $y$. Then
$$ log_0(x) = y implies x = 0^y = 0. $$
But $0^y = 0$ for any positive value of $y$. Hence the expression $log_0(x)$ is not well defined, as there is a not a unique value of $y$ which gets the job done. On the other hand, we can consider limits of expressions of the form $log_b(a)$ as $b$ tends to zero and $a$ either tends to zero or diverges to infinity. Such limits can be said to be "indeterminate of the form $log_0(0)$" or "indeterminate of the form $log_0(infty)$, but this does not mean that they are equal to either of these expressions (anymore than $lim_{xto 0} x^2/x = 0/0$).



Such limits typically require more careful analysis, again using algebraic tools, L'Hospital's rule and other results from analysis, bounding with estimates, or direct $varepsilon$-$delta$ style computation. Limits involving logarithms are discussed in greater detail in J.G.'s answer.





In short, when we say that "the limit is indeterminate of the form $X$", we are saying that if we try to evaluate the limit by naive substitution, then we get the expression $X$, where $X$ is some undefined expression like $frac{0}{0}$, $log_0(0)$, or $1^infty$. Such limits cannot be evaluated by naive substitution, and require other techniques.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Jan 19 at 20:41

























answered Jan 19 at 20:10









Xander HendersonXander Henderson

14.6k103554




14.6k103554












  • $begingroup$
    WOW! by the way i am struggling now i think
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:15










  • $begingroup$
    so basically it needs more analysis
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:16










  • $begingroup$
    all this means 0/0 is undefined
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:18










  • $begingroup$
    thnx thnx thnx, really learnt something new
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:19










  • $begingroup$
    :) wow really thank you, thnx for breaking the mirage
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:19




















  • $begingroup$
    WOW! by the way i am struggling now i think
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:15










  • $begingroup$
    so basically it needs more analysis
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:16










  • $begingroup$
    all this means 0/0 is undefined
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:18










  • $begingroup$
    thnx thnx thnx, really learnt something new
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:19










  • $begingroup$
    :) wow really thank you, thnx for breaking the mirage
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:19


















$begingroup$
WOW! by the way i am struggling now i think
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 20:15




$begingroup$
WOW! by the way i am struggling now i think
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 20:15












$begingroup$
so basically it needs more analysis
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 20:16




$begingroup$
so basically it needs more analysis
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 20:16












$begingroup$
all this means 0/0 is undefined
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 20:18




$begingroup$
all this means 0/0 is undefined
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 20:18












$begingroup$
thnx thnx thnx, really learnt something new
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 20:19




$begingroup$
thnx thnx thnx, really learnt something new
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 20:19












$begingroup$
:) wow really thank you, thnx for breaking the mirage
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 20:19






$begingroup$
:) wow really thank you, thnx for breaking the mirage
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 20:19













1












$begingroup$

Suppose $f,,gto 1$ as $xto 0$. How can we vary $lim_{xto 0}log_f g$? We can take $f=exp x,,g=exp cx$ to get any value $cinBbb R$ we like, or to get $pminfty$ we can use $f=exp x^2,,g=exppm 1$.



Suppose $f,,gto 0$ as $xto 0$. How can we vary $lim_{xto 0}log_f g$? We can take $f=x,,g=x^c$ to get any value $cinBbb R^+$ we like, or to get $infty$ we can use $f=x,,g=x^{1/x^2}$. We can't achieve negative limits because $ln f,,ln gto -infty$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    wow! i didnt even noticed that, that's amazing, i didnt thought about there ranges
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:57










  • $begingroup$
    @PranshuKandal This limit-theoretic treatment explains all the indeterminate forms.
    $endgroup$
    – J.G.
    Jan 19 at 19:58










  • $begingroup$
    thnx @J.G. for help
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:05










  • $begingroup$
    got that as zero to the power of any non-positive number is not defined, log 0 base 0 can only be positive.
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:11










  • $begingroup$
    @PranshuKhandal $log_0(0)$ is undefined. If $f(x) to 0$ and $g(x) to 0$, then $lim log_{f(x)}(g(x))$ is (naively) "indeterminate of the form $log_0(0)$", which may be nonnegative, infinite, or undefined. Because the limit is of an indeterminate form when evaluated naively, deeper analysis is required.
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Jan 19 at 20:16
















1












$begingroup$

Suppose $f,,gto 1$ as $xto 0$. How can we vary $lim_{xto 0}log_f g$? We can take $f=exp x,,g=exp cx$ to get any value $cinBbb R$ we like, or to get $pminfty$ we can use $f=exp x^2,,g=exppm 1$.



Suppose $f,,gto 0$ as $xto 0$. How can we vary $lim_{xto 0}log_f g$? We can take $f=x,,g=x^c$ to get any value $cinBbb R^+$ we like, or to get $infty$ we can use $f=x,,g=x^{1/x^2}$. We can't achieve negative limits because $ln f,,ln gto -infty$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    wow! i didnt even noticed that, that's amazing, i didnt thought about there ranges
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:57










  • $begingroup$
    @PranshuKandal This limit-theoretic treatment explains all the indeterminate forms.
    $endgroup$
    – J.G.
    Jan 19 at 19:58










  • $begingroup$
    thnx @J.G. for help
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:05










  • $begingroup$
    got that as zero to the power of any non-positive number is not defined, log 0 base 0 can only be positive.
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:11










  • $begingroup$
    @PranshuKhandal $log_0(0)$ is undefined. If $f(x) to 0$ and $g(x) to 0$, then $lim log_{f(x)}(g(x))$ is (naively) "indeterminate of the form $log_0(0)$", which may be nonnegative, infinite, or undefined. Because the limit is of an indeterminate form when evaluated naively, deeper analysis is required.
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Jan 19 at 20:16














1












1








1





$begingroup$

Suppose $f,,gto 1$ as $xto 0$. How can we vary $lim_{xto 0}log_f g$? We can take $f=exp x,,g=exp cx$ to get any value $cinBbb R$ we like, or to get $pminfty$ we can use $f=exp x^2,,g=exppm 1$.



Suppose $f,,gto 0$ as $xto 0$. How can we vary $lim_{xto 0}log_f g$? We can take $f=x,,g=x^c$ to get any value $cinBbb R^+$ we like, or to get $infty$ we can use $f=x,,g=x^{1/x^2}$. We can't achieve negative limits because $ln f,,ln gto -infty$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



Suppose $f,,gto 1$ as $xto 0$. How can we vary $lim_{xto 0}log_f g$? We can take $f=exp x,,g=exp cx$ to get any value $cinBbb R$ we like, or to get $pminfty$ we can use $f=exp x^2,,g=exppm 1$.



Suppose $f,,gto 0$ as $xto 0$. How can we vary $lim_{xto 0}log_f g$? We can take $f=x,,g=x^c$ to get any value $cinBbb R^+$ we like, or to get $infty$ we can use $f=x,,g=x^{1/x^2}$. We can't achieve negative limits because $ln f,,ln gto -infty$.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Jan 19 at 19:53

























answered Jan 19 at 19:43









J.G.J.G.

27.1k22843




27.1k22843












  • $begingroup$
    wow! i didnt even noticed that, that's amazing, i didnt thought about there ranges
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:57










  • $begingroup$
    @PranshuKandal This limit-theoretic treatment explains all the indeterminate forms.
    $endgroup$
    – J.G.
    Jan 19 at 19:58










  • $begingroup$
    thnx @J.G. for help
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:05










  • $begingroup$
    got that as zero to the power of any non-positive number is not defined, log 0 base 0 can only be positive.
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:11










  • $begingroup$
    @PranshuKhandal $log_0(0)$ is undefined. If $f(x) to 0$ and $g(x) to 0$, then $lim log_{f(x)}(g(x))$ is (naively) "indeterminate of the form $log_0(0)$", which may be nonnegative, infinite, or undefined. Because the limit is of an indeterminate form when evaluated naively, deeper analysis is required.
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Jan 19 at 20:16


















  • $begingroup$
    wow! i didnt even noticed that, that's amazing, i didnt thought about there ranges
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:57










  • $begingroup$
    @PranshuKandal This limit-theoretic treatment explains all the indeterminate forms.
    $endgroup$
    – J.G.
    Jan 19 at 19:58










  • $begingroup$
    thnx @J.G. for help
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:05










  • $begingroup$
    got that as zero to the power of any non-positive number is not defined, log 0 base 0 can only be positive.
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 20:11










  • $begingroup$
    @PranshuKhandal $log_0(0)$ is undefined. If $f(x) to 0$ and $g(x) to 0$, then $lim log_{f(x)}(g(x))$ is (naively) "indeterminate of the form $log_0(0)$", which may be nonnegative, infinite, or undefined. Because the limit is of an indeterminate form when evaluated naively, deeper analysis is required.
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Jan 19 at 20:16
















$begingroup$
wow! i didnt even noticed that, that's amazing, i didnt thought about there ranges
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 19:57




$begingroup$
wow! i didnt even noticed that, that's amazing, i didnt thought about there ranges
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 19:57












$begingroup$
@PranshuKandal This limit-theoretic treatment explains all the indeterminate forms.
$endgroup$
– J.G.
Jan 19 at 19:58




$begingroup$
@PranshuKandal This limit-theoretic treatment explains all the indeterminate forms.
$endgroup$
– J.G.
Jan 19 at 19:58












$begingroup$
thnx @J.G. for help
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 20:05




$begingroup$
thnx @J.G. for help
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 20:05












$begingroup$
got that as zero to the power of any non-positive number is not defined, log 0 base 0 can only be positive.
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 20:11




$begingroup$
got that as zero to the power of any non-positive number is not defined, log 0 base 0 can only be positive.
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 20:11












$begingroup$
@PranshuKhandal $log_0(0)$ is undefined. If $f(x) to 0$ and $g(x) to 0$, then $lim log_{f(x)}(g(x))$ is (naively) "indeterminate of the form $log_0(0)$", which may be nonnegative, infinite, or undefined. Because the limit is of an indeterminate form when evaluated naively, deeper analysis is required.
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Jan 19 at 20:16




$begingroup$
@PranshuKhandal $log_0(0)$ is undefined. If $f(x) to 0$ and $g(x) to 0$, then $lim log_{f(x)}(g(x))$ is (naively) "indeterminate of the form $log_0(0)$", which may be nonnegative, infinite, or undefined. Because the limit is of an indeterminate form when evaluated naively, deeper analysis is required.
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Jan 19 at 20:16











0












$begingroup$

Let $a=log_1(1)$ and suppose $a$ exists, then $$a=log_1(1)iff 1^a=1$$ so $a$ can be any number. Similarly for $b=log_0(0)iff 0^b=0$






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    does it not prove them indeterminant?? and yes, nice name you have got :)
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:47










  • $begingroup$
    Indeterminant in the sense that any value works, both $a$ and $bneq 0$ can take any value.
    $endgroup$
    – cansomeonehelpmeout
    Jan 19 at 19:51










  • $begingroup$
    can we add them into the list of our fundamental indeterminants
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:53










  • $begingroup$
    if not? them why
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:53










  • $begingroup$
    i think I've got the answer, but which do i accept, help me out
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:55
















0












$begingroup$

Let $a=log_1(1)$ and suppose $a$ exists, then $$a=log_1(1)iff 1^a=1$$ so $a$ can be any number. Similarly for $b=log_0(0)iff 0^b=0$






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    does it not prove them indeterminant?? and yes, nice name you have got :)
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:47










  • $begingroup$
    Indeterminant in the sense that any value works, both $a$ and $bneq 0$ can take any value.
    $endgroup$
    – cansomeonehelpmeout
    Jan 19 at 19:51










  • $begingroup$
    can we add them into the list of our fundamental indeterminants
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:53










  • $begingroup$
    if not? them why
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:53










  • $begingroup$
    i think I've got the answer, but which do i accept, help me out
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:55














0












0








0





$begingroup$

Let $a=log_1(1)$ and suppose $a$ exists, then $$a=log_1(1)iff 1^a=1$$ so $a$ can be any number. Similarly for $b=log_0(0)iff 0^b=0$






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$



Let $a=log_1(1)$ and suppose $a$ exists, then $$a=log_1(1)iff 1^a=1$$ so $a$ can be any number. Similarly for $b=log_0(0)iff 0^b=0$







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Jan 19 at 19:40









cansomeonehelpmeoutcansomeonehelpmeout

6,9073935




6,9073935












  • $begingroup$
    does it not prove them indeterminant?? and yes, nice name you have got :)
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:47










  • $begingroup$
    Indeterminant in the sense that any value works, both $a$ and $bneq 0$ can take any value.
    $endgroup$
    – cansomeonehelpmeout
    Jan 19 at 19:51










  • $begingroup$
    can we add them into the list of our fundamental indeterminants
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:53










  • $begingroup$
    if not? them why
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:53










  • $begingroup$
    i think I've got the answer, but which do i accept, help me out
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:55


















  • $begingroup$
    does it not prove them indeterminant?? and yes, nice name you have got :)
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:47










  • $begingroup$
    Indeterminant in the sense that any value works, both $a$ and $bneq 0$ can take any value.
    $endgroup$
    – cansomeonehelpmeout
    Jan 19 at 19:51










  • $begingroup$
    can we add them into the list of our fundamental indeterminants
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:53










  • $begingroup$
    if not? them why
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:53










  • $begingroup$
    i think I've got the answer, but which do i accept, help me out
    $endgroup$
    – PranshuKhandal
    Jan 19 at 19:55
















$begingroup$
does it not prove them indeterminant?? and yes, nice name you have got :)
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 19:47




$begingroup$
does it not prove them indeterminant?? and yes, nice name you have got :)
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 19:47












$begingroup$
Indeterminant in the sense that any value works, both $a$ and $bneq 0$ can take any value.
$endgroup$
– cansomeonehelpmeout
Jan 19 at 19:51




$begingroup$
Indeterminant in the sense that any value works, both $a$ and $bneq 0$ can take any value.
$endgroup$
– cansomeonehelpmeout
Jan 19 at 19:51












$begingroup$
can we add them into the list of our fundamental indeterminants
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 19:53




$begingroup$
can we add them into the list of our fundamental indeterminants
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 19:53












$begingroup$
if not? them why
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 19:53




$begingroup$
if not? them why
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 19:53












$begingroup$
i think I've got the answer, but which do i accept, help me out
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 19:55




$begingroup$
i think I've got the answer, but which do i accept, help me out
$endgroup$
– PranshuKhandal
Jan 19 at 19:55


















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