Finite Algebras and Grobner Bases
$begingroup$
Background
Suppose that $A$ is a finite $mathbb{R}$-algebra, that is, it is finite-dimensional as an vector space.
By a consequence of the Hilbert-basisatz, since $mathbb{R}$ is Noetherian, then so is $A$, hence, in particular, there exists $f_1,dots,f_n$ generating the ideal $mathbb{R}[x]/(x^n)=mathbb{R}(f_1,dots,f_n)$. I assume these can be expressed using a Groebner basis.
Question
If $f_1,dots,f_n$ is a Groebner basis of $Atriangleq frac{mathbb{R}}{(f_1,dots,f_n)}$; $f_i in mathbb{R}$, and $N_1,dots,_{N_n}>0$ is such that
$$
Deg(f_1)={N_i},
$$
then does the set of all divisors of $f_1,dots,f_n$ for a basis of $A$ as an $mathbb{R}$-module?
Example
In the special case that $A=mathbb{R}[x]/(x^n)cong mathbb{R}^{n}$ as an vector space over $mathbb{R}$. This is indeed true and
$$
mathcal{B}= {x^i
}_{i=0}^{N_n}qquad
;N_n=n
,
$$
forms a basis of $A$ as a $mathbb{R}$-algebra.
algebraic-geometry ring-theory commutative-algebra algebras groebner-basis
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Background
Suppose that $A$ is a finite $mathbb{R}$-algebra, that is, it is finite-dimensional as an vector space.
By a consequence of the Hilbert-basisatz, since $mathbb{R}$ is Noetherian, then so is $A$, hence, in particular, there exists $f_1,dots,f_n$ generating the ideal $mathbb{R}[x]/(x^n)=mathbb{R}(f_1,dots,f_n)$. I assume these can be expressed using a Groebner basis.
Question
If $f_1,dots,f_n$ is a Groebner basis of $Atriangleq frac{mathbb{R}}{(f_1,dots,f_n)}$; $f_i in mathbb{R}$, and $N_1,dots,_{N_n}>0$ is such that
$$
Deg(f_1)={N_i},
$$
then does the set of all divisors of $f_1,dots,f_n$ for a basis of $A$ as an $mathbb{R}$-module?
Example
In the special case that $A=mathbb{R}[x]/(x^n)cong mathbb{R}^{n}$ as an vector space over $mathbb{R}$. This is indeed true and
$$
mathcal{B}= {x^i
}_{i=0}^{N_n}qquad
;N_n=n
,
$$
forms a basis of $A$ as a $mathbb{R}$-algebra.
algebraic-geometry ring-theory commutative-algebra algebras groebner-basis
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
I can't understand your question. Are you asking something about a general finite $mathbb R$-algebra $A$? Or are you asking about the algebra $S = mathbb R[x]/(x^n)$? You say "in particular there exist $f_1,ldots,f_n$ generating the ideal $mathbb R[x]/(x^n)$". This is $S$ which is not a proper ideal, its the whole ring - so it's generated by $1$, or any unit.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 25 at 14:24
$begingroup$
Basically, I was wondering if you can use Grobner basises to express every polynomial in $A$ (general not only $mathbb{R}[x]/(x^n)$) as a linear combination of them and a finite number of their exponents
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 28 at 9:12
$begingroup$
Linear combination with what kind of coefficients?
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 28 at 9:36
$begingroup$
For a basis as a module Take $n=1$ and $f_1 =1$. Then any $f$ is a linear comination of elements of ${1}$ namely $f=fcdot 1$. For a basis as a vector space take ${1,x,x^2,ldots,x^{n-1}}$.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 28 at 13:56
$begingroup$
@Ben That is indeed true, and I implicitly worked it out. I rephrased the question in a way that hopefully makes it clearer (after givign it some more thought)
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 30 at 10:51
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Background
Suppose that $A$ is a finite $mathbb{R}$-algebra, that is, it is finite-dimensional as an vector space.
By a consequence of the Hilbert-basisatz, since $mathbb{R}$ is Noetherian, then so is $A$, hence, in particular, there exists $f_1,dots,f_n$ generating the ideal $mathbb{R}[x]/(x^n)=mathbb{R}(f_1,dots,f_n)$. I assume these can be expressed using a Groebner basis.
Question
If $f_1,dots,f_n$ is a Groebner basis of $Atriangleq frac{mathbb{R}}{(f_1,dots,f_n)}$; $f_i in mathbb{R}$, and $N_1,dots,_{N_n}>0$ is such that
$$
Deg(f_1)={N_i},
$$
then does the set of all divisors of $f_1,dots,f_n$ for a basis of $A$ as an $mathbb{R}$-module?
Example
In the special case that $A=mathbb{R}[x]/(x^n)cong mathbb{R}^{n}$ as an vector space over $mathbb{R}$. This is indeed true and
$$
mathcal{B}= {x^i
}_{i=0}^{N_n}qquad
;N_n=n
,
$$
forms a basis of $A$ as a $mathbb{R}$-algebra.
algebraic-geometry ring-theory commutative-algebra algebras groebner-basis
$endgroup$
Background
Suppose that $A$ is a finite $mathbb{R}$-algebra, that is, it is finite-dimensional as an vector space.
By a consequence of the Hilbert-basisatz, since $mathbb{R}$ is Noetherian, then so is $A$, hence, in particular, there exists $f_1,dots,f_n$ generating the ideal $mathbb{R}[x]/(x^n)=mathbb{R}(f_1,dots,f_n)$. I assume these can be expressed using a Groebner basis.
Question
If $f_1,dots,f_n$ is a Groebner basis of $Atriangleq frac{mathbb{R}}{(f_1,dots,f_n)}$; $f_i in mathbb{R}$, and $N_1,dots,_{N_n}>0$ is such that
$$
Deg(f_1)={N_i},
$$
then does the set of all divisors of $f_1,dots,f_n$ for a basis of $A$ as an $mathbb{R}$-module?
Example
In the special case that $A=mathbb{R}[x]/(x^n)cong mathbb{R}^{n}$ as an vector space over $mathbb{R}$. This is indeed true and
$$
mathcal{B}= {x^i
}_{i=0}^{N_n}qquad
;N_n=n
,
$$
forms a basis of $A$ as a $mathbb{R}$-algebra.
algebraic-geometry ring-theory commutative-algebra algebras groebner-basis
algebraic-geometry ring-theory commutative-algebra algebras groebner-basis
edited Jan 31 at 8:44
AIM_BLB
2,5152819
2,5152819
asked Jan 25 at 11:16
N00berN00ber
307111
307111
3
$begingroup$
I can't understand your question. Are you asking something about a general finite $mathbb R$-algebra $A$? Or are you asking about the algebra $S = mathbb R[x]/(x^n)$? You say "in particular there exist $f_1,ldots,f_n$ generating the ideal $mathbb R[x]/(x^n)$". This is $S$ which is not a proper ideal, its the whole ring - so it's generated by $1$, or any unit.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 25 at 14:24
$begingroup$
Basically, I was wondering if you can use Grobner basises to express every polynomial in $A$ (general not only $mathbb{R}[x]/(x^n)$) as a linear combination of them and a finite number of their exponents
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 28 at 9:12
$begingroup$
Linear combination with what kind of coefficients?
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 28 at 9:36
$begingroup$
For a basis as a module Take $n=1$ and $f_1 =1$. Then any $f$ is a linear comination of elements of ${1}$ namely $f=fcdot 1$. For a basis as a vector space take ${1,x,x^2,ldots,x^{n-1}}$.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 28 at 13:56
$begingroup$
@Ben That is indeed true, and I implicitly worked it out. I rephrased the question in a way that hopefully makes it clearer (after givign it some more thought)
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 30 at 10:51
add a comment |
3
$begingroup$
I can't understand your question. Are you asking something about a general finite $mathbb R$-algebra $A$? Or are you asking about the algebra $S = mathbb R[x]/(x^n)$? You say "in particular there exist $f_1,ldots,f_n$ generating the ideal $mathbb R[x]/(x^n)$". This is $S$ which is not a proper ideal, its the whole ring - so it's generated by $1$, or any unit.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 25 at 14:24
$begingroup$
Basically, I was wondering if you can use Grobner basises to express every polynomial in $A$ (general not only $mathbb{R}[x]/(x^n)$) as a linear combination of them and a finite number of their exponents
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 28 at 9:12
$begingroup$
Linear combination with what kind of coefficients?
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 28 at 9:36
$begingroup$
For a basis as a module Take $n=1$ and $f_1 =1$. Then any $f$ is a linear comination of elements of ${1}$ namely $f=fcdot 1$. For a basis as a vector space take ${1,x,x^2,ldots,x^{n-1}}$.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 28 at 13:56
$begingroup$
@Ben That is indeed true, and I implicitly worked it out. I rephrased the question in a way that hopefully makes it clearer (after givign it some more thought)
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 30 at 10:51
3
3
$begingroup$
I can't understand your question. Are you asking something about a general finite $mathbb R$-algebra $A$? Or are you asking about the algebra $S = mathbb R[x]/(x^n)$? You say "in particular there exist $f_1,ldots,f_n$ generating the ideal $mathbb R[x]/(x^n)$". This is $S$ which is not a proper ideal, its the whole ring - so it's generated by $1$, or any unit.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 25 at 14:24
$begingroup$
I can't understand your question. Are you asking something about a general finite $mathbb R$-algebra $A$? Or are you asking about the algebra $S = mathbb R[x]/(x^n)$? You say "in particular there exist $f_1,ldots,f_n$ generating the ideal $mathbb R[x]/(x^n)$". This is $S$ which is not a proper ideal, its the whole ring - so it's generated by $1$, or any unit.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 25 at 14:24
$begingroup$
Basically, I was wondering if you can use Grobner basises to express every polynomial in $A$ (general not only $mathbb{R}[x]/(x^n)$) as a linear combination of them and a finite number of their exponents
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 28 at 9:12
$begingroup$
Basically, I was wondering if you can use Grobner basises to express every polynomial in $A$ (general not only $mathbb{R}[x]/(x^n)$) as a linear combination of them and a finite number of their exponents
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 28 at 9:12
$begingroup$
Linear combination with what kind of coefficients?
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 28 at 9:36
$begingroup$
Linear combination with what kind of coefficients?
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 28 at 9:36
$begingroup$
For a basis as a module Take $n=1$ and $f_1 =1$. Then any $f$ is a linear comination of elements of ${1}$ namely $f=fcdot 1$. For a basis as a vector space take ${1,x,x^2,ldots,x^{n-1}}$.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 28 at 13:56
$begingroup$
For a basis as a module Take $n=1$ and $f_1 =1$. Then any $f$ is a linear comination of elements of ${1}$ namely $f=fcdot 1$. For a basis as a vector space take ${1,x,x^2,ldots,x^{n-1}}$.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 28 at 13:56
$begingroup$
@Ben That is indeed true, and I implicitly worked it out. I rephrased the question in a way that hopefully makes it clearer (after givign it some more thought)
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 30 at 10:51
$begingroup$
@Ben That is indeed true, and I implicitly worked it out. I rephrased the question in a way that hopefully makes it clearer (after givign it some more thought)
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 30 at 10:51
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
In your "Question" section, I don't know what you mean by "if $f_1,ldots, f_n$ is a Grobner basis of $A$". A Grobner basis is usually defined for an ideal of a polynomial ring over a field, not just any algebra.
Maybe you mean that $A$ is a quotient of a polynomial ring $mathbb R[x_1,ldots, x_m]/I = A$, as in your example, and you mean that ${f_i}$ is a Grobner basis for the ideal $I = (f_1,ldots, f_n)$. Then no, ${f_i}$ is not a basis for $A$, it's the opposite of a basis - all of its elements are 0 in $A$.
You have mentioned $mathbb R[x]/(x^n)$ and said it is "indeed true" that ${x^i}_{i=0}^{n-1}$ forms a basis for this algebra. But was it a Grobner basis in the first place? Why do you think this/what does it mean?
ADDED:
OK I think I understand what you're trying to ask. Maybe your questions is:
How can a Grobner basis for an ideal $I$ help us find a basis for $A = mathbb R[x_1,ldots, x_n]/I$? (Possibly in the special case that $A$ is finite dimensional.)
I'll answer this by suggesting a couple examples.
In one variable, $mathbb R[x]$ is a PID so all ideals are of the form $(f)$. This is a rather trivial use of Grobner bases, but the pattern that extends to multiple variables is that a basis for the quotient $A$ is given by power of $x$ less than the degree of $f$.
An example in two variables is the ideal $I = (x^2y^2 + xy + 1, x^3, y^4)$. One Grobner basis for this is ${x^2y^2, x^3, y^4}$. What is a basis for the quotient? Any monomial $x^iy^j$ for a pair $(i,j)$ such that $i<3$ and $j<4$ and if $igeq 2$ then $j < 2$. In other words ${1,y,x,x^2,xy,y^2,x^2y,xy^2,y^3,xy^3}$.
As you can see, the conditions that come up in 2 are not about divisibility, but just about bounds on what degree each variable can have. When you have mixed terms of more variables the constraints become more complicated, which is where the monomial orders come in.
Lastly I'll mention that it's not important that $A$ be finite dimensional. You can still find a basis of the quotient using a grobner basis for the ideal. You could do this in $A$ for instance when you remove the assumption that $y^4 = 0$. Then a basis for $A$ will be $y^i, xy^i, x^2, x^2y$ where $i geq 0$ is any power of $y$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I mean the divisors of the elements of the Grobner basis. Would that work then? Just as $1,x^1,dots,x^{n-1}$ are all the divisors of $x^n$ (and $x^n$ forms the Groebner basis). I realized my question was unclear and I modifies it to ask exactly what you're hinting at. Thanks again Ben.
$endgroup$
– AIM_BLB
Jan 31 at 8:41
2
$begingroup$
Ah I think I understand your question. The idea is more like: the powers of $x$ less than $deg(f)$ form a grobner basis for $(f)$ in $mathbb R[x]$. I can edit this answer to give a more detailed explanation.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 9:47
$begingroup$
@AIM_BLB Added an explanation with another example in two variables.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 10:36
$begingroup$
Yes this is precisely what I wanted to ask! Thanks for helping me clarify.
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 31 at 10:45
1
$begingroup$
No problem! By the way, the twice-upvoted commented above is actually not quite correct. It should say "the powers of $x$ less than $deg(f)$ form a basis for $mathbb R[x]/(f)$, with ${f}$ being a Grobner basis for $(f)$." That is: ${1,x,ldots, x^i}$ is the basis for the quotient ring, not the Grobner basis of the ideal, which is just ${x^n}$.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 10:48
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
I didn't completely understand your question, as there are many obscure things as Ben pointed out.
However, I assume that you are asking something like this: I have a commutative algebra $A$ over $mathbb{R}$ which is finite-dimensional as an $mathbb{R}$-vector space. In particular, it has to be of the form $Acongmathbb{R}[X_1,ldots,X_n]/(f_1,ldots,f_m)$ for some polynomials $f_1,ldots,f_m$. I fix a monomial order and I assume that ${f_1,ldots,f_m}$ is a Groebner basis for the ideal they generate. Is it true that the set $mathcal{B}$ containing the equivalence classes of all the divisors of the polynomials $f_1,ldots,f_m$ forms a basis for $A$ as a vector space over $mathbb{R}$?
The first trivial answer is of course, not: the classes of $f_1,ldots,f_m$ are all $0$ and they are in $mathcal{B}$. So, let us assume you want only the proper divisors (whence excluding $f_1,ldots,f_m$ and $1$). The answer is still no: ${x^2+1}$ is a Groebner basis for $(x^2+1)$ in $mathbb{R}[x]$ but it has no divisors at all.
Notice that you have to exclude $1$, otherwise ${x^2-1}$ is a Groebner basis for $(x^2-1)$ in $mathbb{R}[x]$ but $mathcal{B}={[x-1],[x+1],[1]}$ which is not free over $mathbb{R}$ (with $[;cdot;]$ I denote the equivalence class in the quotient).
Edit: It doesn't even work over an algebraically closed field: ${X^3-1}$ is a Groebner basis for $(X^3-1)$ in $mathbb{C}[X]$, however the elements in $$mathcal{B}={[X-1],[X-xi],[X-xi^2],[X^2+X+1],[X^2 + xi^2 X+xi],[X^2+xi X+xi^2]}$$
are not linearly independent, where $xi$ is a root of $X^2+X+1$. Indeed
$$[X-xi]+[X-xi^2]-frac{1}{3}Big(2[X^2+X+1]-[X^2+xi X+xi^2]-[X^2+xi^2X+xi]Big) = [X] = frac{1}{3}Big([X-1]+[X-xi]+[X-xi^2]Big)$$
which are two expressions of $[X]$ as linear combination of elements of $mathcal{B}$.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Would this be true, if polynomials divisible by $(x^2+1)$ were removed (or if it were over $mathbb{C}$ instead of the reals?
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 31 at 9:52
1
$begingroup$
I edited the answer to take care of the algebraically closed case, but I didn't understand what you mean by removing polynomials divisible by $x^2+1$.
$endgroup$
– Ender Wiggins
Jan 31 at 10:17
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2
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$begingroup$
In your "Question" section, I don't know what you mean by "if $f_1,ldots, f_n$ is a Grobner basis of $A$". A Grobner basis is usually defined for an ideal of a polynomial ring over a field, not just any algebra.
Maybe you mean that $A$ is a quotient of a polynomial ring $mathbb R[x_1,ldots, x_m]/I = A$, as in your example, and you mean that ${f_i}$ is a Grobner basis for the ideal $I = (f_1,ldots, f_n)$. Then no, ${f_i}$ is not a basis for $A$, it's the opposite of a basis - all of its elements are 0 in $A$.
You have mentioned $mathbb R[x]/(x^n)$ and said it is "indeed true" that ${x^i}_{i=0}^{n-1}$ forms a basis for this algebra. But was it a Grobner basis in the first place? Why do you think this/what does it mean?
ADDED:
OK I think I understand what you're trying to ask. Maybe your questions is:
How can a Grobner basis for an ideal $I$ help us find a basis for $A = mathbb R[x_1,ldots, x_n]/I$? (Possibly in the special case that $A$ is finite dimensional.)
I'll answer this by suggesting a couple examples.
In one variable, $mathbb R[x]$ is a PID so all ideals are of the form $(f)$. This is a rather trivial use of Grobner bases, but the pattern that extends to multiple variables is that a basis for the quotient $A$ is given by power of $x$ less than the degree of $f$.
An example in two variables is the ideal $I = (x^2y^2 + xy + 1, x^3, y^4)$. One Grobner basis for this is ${x^2y^2, x^3, y^4}$. What is a basis for the quotient? Any monomial $x^iy^j$ for a pair $(i,j)$ such that $i<3$ and $j<4$ and if $igeq 2$ then $j < 2$. In other words ${1,y,x,x^2,xy,y^2,x^2y,xy^2,y^3,xy^3}$.
As you can see, the conditions that come up in 2 are not about divisibility, but just about bounds on what degree each variable can have. When you have mixed terms of more variables the constraints become more complicated, which is where the monomial orders come in.
Lastly I'll mention that it's not important that $A$ be finite dimensional. You can still find a basis of the quotient using a grobner basis for the ideal. You could do this in $A$ for instance when you remove the assumption that $y^4 = 0$. Then a basis for $A$ will be $y^i, xy^i, x^2, x^2y$ where $i geq 0$ is any power of $y$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I mean the divisors of the elements of the Grobner basis. Would that work then? Just as $1,x^1,dots,x^{n-1}$ are all the divisors of $x^n$ (and $x^n$ forms the Groebner basis). I realized my question was unclear and I modifies it to ask exactly what you're hinting at. Thanks again Ben.
$endgroup$
– AIM_BLB
Jan 31 at 8:41
2
$begingroup$
Ah I think I understand your question. The idea is more like: the powers of $x$ less than $deg(f)$ form a grobner basis for $(f)$ in $mathbb R[x]$. I can edit this answer to give a more detailed explanation.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 9:47
$begingroup$
@AIM_BLB Added an explanation with another example in two variables.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 10:36
$begingroup$
Yes this is precisely what I wanted to ask! Thanks for helping me clarify.
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 31 at 10:45
1
$begingroup$
No problem! By the way, the twice-upvoted commented above is actually not quite correct. It should say "the powers of $x$ less than $deg(f)$ form a basis for $mathbb R[x]/(f)$, with ${f}$ being a Grobner basis for $(f)$." That is: ${1,x,ldots, x^i}$ is the basis for the quotient ring, not the Grobner basis of the ideal, which is just ${x^n}$.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 10:48
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
In your "Question" section, I don't know what you mean by "if $f_1,ldots, f_n$ is a Grobner basis of $A$". A Grobner basis is usually defined for an ideal of a polynomial ring over a field, not just any algebra.
Maybe you mean that $A$ is a quotient of a polynomial ring $mathbb R[x_1,ldots, x_m]/I = A$, as in your example, and you mean that ${f_i}$ is a Grobner basis for the ideal $I = (f_1,ldots, f_n)$. Then no, ${f_i}$ is not a basis for $A$, it's the opposite of a basis - all of its elements are 0 in $A$.
You have mentioned $mathbb R[x]/(x^n)$ and said it is "indeed true" that ${x^i}_{i=0}^{n-1}$ forms a basis for this algebra. But was it a Grobner basis in the first place? Why do you think this/what does it mean?
ADDED:
OK I think I understand what you're trying to ask. Maybe your questions is:
How can a Grobner basis for an ideal $I$ help us find a basis for $A = mathbb R[x_1,ldots, x_n]/I$? (Possibly in the special case that $A$ is finite dimensional.)
I'll answer this by suggesting a couple examples.
In one variable, $mathbb R[x]$ is a PID so all ideals are of the form $(f)$. This is a rather trivial use of Grobner bases, but the pattern that extends to multiple variables is that a basis for the quotient $A$ is given by power of $x$ less than the degree of $f$.
An example in two variables is the ideal $I = (x^2y^2 + xy + 1, x^3, y^4)$. One Grobner basis for this is ${x^2y^2, x^3, y^4}$. What is a basis for the quotient? Any monomial $x^iy^j$ for a pair $(i,j)$ such that $i<3$ and $j<4$ and if $igeq 2$ then $j < 2$. In other words ${1,y,x,x^2,xy,y^2,x^2y,xy^2,y^3,xy^3}$.
As you can see, the conditions that come up in 2 are not about divisibility, but just about bounds on what degree each variable can have. When you have mixed terms of more variables the constraints become more complicated, which is where the monomial orders come in.
Lastly I'll mention that it's not important that $A$ be finite dimensional. You can still find a basis of the quotient using a grobner basis for the ideal. You could do this in $A$ for instance when you remove the assumption that $y^4 = 0$. Then a basis for $A$ will be $y^i, xy^i, x^2, x^2y$ where $i geq 0$ is any power of $y$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I mean the divisors of the elements of the Grobner basis. Would that work then? Just as $1,x^1,dots,x^{n-1}$ are all the divisors of $x^n$ (and $x^n$ forms the Groebner basis). I realized my question was unclear and I modifies it to ask exactly what you're hinting at. Thanks again Ben.
$endgroup$
– AIM_BLB
Jan 31 at 8:41
2
$begingroup$
Ah I think I understand your question. The idea is more like: the powers of $x$ less than $deg(f)$ form a grobner basis for $(f)$ in $mathbb R[x]$. I can edit this answer to give a more detailed explanation.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 9:47
$begingroup$
@AIM_BLB Added an explanation with another example in two variables.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 10:36
$begingroup$
Yes this is precisely what I wanted to ask! Thanks for helping me clarify.
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 31 at 10:45
1
$begingroup$
No problem! By the way, the twice-upvoted commented above is actually not quite correct. It should say "the powers of $x$ less than $deg(f)$ form a basis for $mathbb R[x]/(f)$, with ${f}$ being a Grobner basis for $(f)$." That is: ${1,x,ldots, x^i}$ is the basis for the quotient ring, not the Grobner basis of the ideal, which is just ${x^n}$.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 10:48
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
In your "Question" section, I don't know what you mean by "if $f_1,ldots, f_n$ is a Grobner basis of $A$". A Grobner basis is usually defined for an ideal of a polynomial ring over a field, not just any algebra.
Maybe you mean that $A$ is a quotient of a polynomial ring $mathbb R[x_1,ldots, x_m]/I = A$, as in your example, and you mean that ${f_i}$ is a Grobner basis for the ideal $I = (f_1,ldots, f_n)$. Then no, ${f_i}$ is not a basis for $A$, it's the opposite of a basis - all of its elements are 0 in $A$.
You have mentioned $mathbb R[x]/(x^n)$ and said it is "indeed true" that ${x^i}_{i=0}^{n-1}$ forms a basis for this algebra. But was it a Grobner basis in the first place? Why do you think this/what does it mean?
ADDED:
OK I think I understand what you're trying to ask. Maybe your questions is:
How can a Grobner basis for an ideal $I$ help us find a basis for $A = mathbb R[x_1,ldots, x_n]/I$? (Possibly in the special case that $A$ is finite dimensional.)
I'll answer this by suggesting a couple examples.
In one variable, $mathbb R[x]$ is a PID so all ideals are of the form $(f)$. This is a rather trivial use of Grobner bases, but the pattern that extends to multiple variables is that a basis for the quotient $A$ is given by power of $x$ less than the degree of $f$.
An example in two variables is the ideal $I = (x^2y^2 + xy + 1, x^3, y^4)$. One Grobner basis for this is ${x^2y^2, x^3, y^4}$. What is a basis for the quotient? Any monomial $x^iy^j$ for a pair $(i,j)$ such that $i<3$ and $j<4$ and if $igeq 2$ then $j < 2$. In other words ${1,y,x,x^2,xy,y^2,x^2y,xy^2,y^3,xy^3}$.
As you can see, the conditions that come up in 2 are not about divisibility, but just about bounds on what degree each variable can have. When you have mixed terms of more variables the constraints become more complicated, which is where the monomial orders come in.
Lastly I'll mention that it's not important that $A$ be finite dimensional. You can still find a basis of the quotient using a grobner basis for the ideal. You could do this in $A$ for instance when you remove the assumption that $y^4 = 0$. Then a basis for $A$ will be $y^i, xy^i, x^2, x^2y$ where $i geq 0$ is any power of $y$.
$endgroup$
In your "Question" section, I don't know what you mean by "if $f_1,ldots, f_n$ is a Grobner basis of $A$". A Grobner basis is usually defined for an ideal of a polynomial ring over a field, not just any algebra.
Maybe you mean that $A$ is a quotient of a polynomial ring $mathbb R[x_1,ldots, x_m]/I = A$, as in your example, and you mean that ${f_i}$ is a Grobner basis for the ideal $I = (f_1,ldots, f_n)$. Then no, ${f_i}$ is not a basis for $A$, it's the opposite of a basis - all of its elements are 0 in $A$.
You have mentioned $mathbb R[x]/(x^n)$ and said it is "indeed true" that ${x^i}_{i=0}^{n-1}$ forms a basis for this algebra. But was it a Grobner basis in the first place? Why do you think this/what does it mean?
ADDED:
OK I think I understand what you're trying to ask. Maybe your questions is:
How can a Grobner basis for an ideal $I$ help us find a basis for $A = mathbb R[x_1,ldots, x_n]/I$? (Possibly in the special case that $A$ is finite dimensional.)
I'll answer this by suggesting a couple examples.
In one variable, $mathbb R[x]$ is a PID so all ideals are of the form $(f)$. This is a rather trivial use of Grobner bases, but the pattern that extends to multiple variables is that a basis for the quotient $A$ is given by power of $x$ less than the degree of $f$.
An example in two variables is the ideal $I = (x^2y^2 + xy + 1, x^3, y^4)$. One Grobner basis for this is ${x^2y^2, x^3, y^4}$. What is a basis for the quotient? Any monomial $x^iy^j$ for a pair $(i,j)$ such that $i<3$ and $j<4$ and if $igeq 2$ then $j < 2$. In other words ${1,y,x,x^2,xy,y^2,x^2y,xy^2,y^3,xy^3}$.
As you can see, the conditions that come up in 2 are not about divisibility, but just about bounds on what degree each variable can have. When you have mixed terms of more variables the constraints become more complicated, which is where the monomial orders come in.
Lastly I'll mention that it's not important that $A$ be finite dimensional. You can still find a basis of the quotient using a grobner basis for the ideal. You could do this in $A$ for instance when you remove the assumption that $y^4 = 0$. Then a basis for $A$ will be $y^i, xy^i, x^2, x^2y$ where $i geq 0$ is any power of $y$.
edited Jan 31 at 10:35
answered Jan 30 at 17:50
BenBen
4,278617
4,278617
$begingroup$
I mean the divisors of the elements of the Grobner basis. Would that work then? Just as $1,x^1,dots,x^{n-1}$ are all the divisors of $x^n$ (and $x^n$ forms the Groebner basis). I realized my question was unclear and I modifies it to ask exactly what you're hinting at. Thanks again Ben.
$endgroup$
– AIM_BLB
Jan 31 at 8:41
2
$begingroup$
Ah I think I understand your question. The idea is more like: the powers of $x$ less than $deg(f)$ form a grobner basis for $(f)$ in $mathbb R[x]$. I can edit this answer to give a more detailed explanation.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 9:47
$begingroup$
@AIM_BLB Added an explanation with another example in two variables.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 10:36
$begingroup$
Yes this is precisely what I wanted to ask! Thanks for helping me clarify.
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 31 at 10:45
1
$begingroup$
No problem! By the way, the twice-upvoted commented above is actually not quite correct. It should say "the powers of $x$ less than $deg(f)$ form a basis for $mathbb R[x]/(f)$, with ${f}$ being a Grobner basis for $(f)$." That is: ${1,x,ldots, x^i}$ is the basis for the quotient ring, not the Grobner basis of the ideal, which is just ${x^n}$.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 10:48
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
I mean the divisors of the elements of the Grobner basis. Would that work then? Just as $1,x^1,dots,x^{n-1}$ are all the divisors of $x^n$ (and $x^n$ forms the Groebner basis). I realized my question was unclear and I modifies it to ask exactly what you're hinting at. Thanks again Ben.
$endgroup$
– AIM_BLB
Jan 31 at 8:41
2
$begingroup$
Ah I think I understand your question. The idea is more like: the powers of $x$ less than $deg(f)$ form a grobner basis for $(f)$ in $mathbb R[x]$. I can edit this answer to give a more detailed explanation.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 9:47
$begingroup$
@AIM_BLB Added an explanation with another example in two variables.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 10:36
$begingroup$
Yes this is precisely what I wanted to ask! Thanks for helping me clarify.
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 31 at 10:45
1
$begingroup$
No problem! By the way, the twice-upvoted commented above is actually not quite correct. It should say "the powers of $x$ less than $deg(f)$ form a basis for $mathbb R[x]/(f)$, with ${f}$ being a Grobner basis for $(f)$." That is: ${1,x,ldots, x^i}$ is the basis for the quotient ring, not the Grobner basis of the ideal, which is just ${x^n}$.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 10:48
$begingroup$
I mean the divisors of the elements of the Grobner basis. Would that work then? Just as $1,x^1,dots,x^{n-1}$ are all the divisors of $x^n$ (and $x^n$ forms the Groebner basis). I realized my question was unclear and I modifies it to ask exactly what you're hinting at. Thanks again Ben.
$endgroup$
– AIM_BLB
Jan 31 at 8:41
$begingroup$
I mean the divisors of the elements of the Grobner basis. Would that work then? Just as $1,x^1,dots,x^{n-1}$ are all the divisors of $x^n$ (and $x^n$ forms the Groebner basis). I realized my question was unclear and I modifies it to ask exactly what you're hinting at. Thanks again Ben.
$endgroup$
– AIM_BLB
Jan 31 at 8:41
2
2
$begingroup$
Ah I think I understand your question. The idea is more like: the powers of $x$ less than $deg(f)$ form a grobner basis for $(f)$ in $mathbb R[x]$. I can edit this answer to give a more detailed explanation.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 9:47
$begingroup$
Ah I think I understand your question. The idea is more like: the powers of $x$ less than $deg(f)$ form a grobner basis for $(f)$ in $mathbb R[x]$. I can edit this answer to give a more detailed explanation.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 9:47
$begingroup$
@AIM_BLB Added an explanation with another example in two variables.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 10:36
$begingroup$
@AIM_BLB Added an explanation with another example in two variables.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 10:36
$begingroup$
Yes this is precisely what I wanted to ask! Thanks for helping me clarify.
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 31 at 10:45
$begingroup$
Yes this is precisely what I wanted to ask! Thanks for helping me clarify.
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 31 at 10:45
1
1
$begingroup$
No problem! By the way, the twice-upvoted commented above is actually not quite correct. It should say "the powers of $x$ less than $deg(f)$ form a basis for $mathbb R[x]/(f)$, with ${f}$ being a Grobner basis for $(f)$." That is: ${1,x,ldots, x^i}$ is the basis for the quotient ring, not the Grobner basis of the ideal, which is just ${x^n}$.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 10:48
$begingroup$
No problem! By the way, the twice-upvoted commented above is actually not quite correct. It should say "the powers of $x$ less than $deg(f)$ form a basis for $mathbb R[x]/(f)$, with ${f}$ being a Grobner basis for $(f)$." That is: ${1,x,ldots, x^i}$ is the basis for the quotient ring, not the Grobner basis of the ideal, which is just ${x^n}$.
$endgroup$
– Ben
Jan 31 at 10:48
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
I didn't completely understand your question, as there are many obscure things as Ben pointed out.
However, I assume that you are asking something like this: I have a commutative algebra $A$ over $mathbb{R}$ which is finite-dimensional as an $mathbb{R}$-vector space. In particular, it has to be of the form $Acongmathbb{R}[X_1,ldots,X_n]/(f_1,ldots,f_m)$ for some polynomials $f_1,ldots,f_m$. I fix a monomial order and I assume that ${f_1,ldots,f_m}$ is a Groebner basis for the ideal they generate. Is it true that the set $mathcal{B}$ containing the equivalence classes of all the divisors of the polynomials $f_1,ldots,f_m$ forms a basis for $A$ as a vector space over $mathbb{R}$?
The first trivial answer is of course, not: the classes of $f_1,ldots,f_m$ are all $0$ and they are in $mathcal{B}$. So, let us assume you want only the proper divisors (whence excluding $f_1,ldots,f_m$ and $1$). The answer is still no: ${x^2+1}$ is a Groebner basis for $(x^2+1)$ in $mathbb{R}[x]$ but it has no divisors at all.
Notice that you have to exclude $1$, otherwise ${x^2-1}$ is a Groebner basis for $(x^2-1)$ in $mathbb{R}[x]$ but $mathcal{B}={[x-1],[x+1],[1]}$ which is not free over $mathbb{R}$ (with $[;cdot;]$ I denote the equivalence class in the quotient).
Edit: It doesn't even work over an algebraically closed field: ${X^3-1}$ is a Groebner basis for $(X^3-1)$ in $mathbb{C}[X]$, however the elements in $$mathcal{B}={[X-1],[X-xi],[X-xi^2],[X^2+X+1],[X^2 + xi^2 X+xi],[X^2+xi X+xi^2]}$$
are not linearly independent, where $xi$ is a root of $X^2+X+1$. Indeed
$$[X-xi]+[X-xi^2]-frac{1}{3}Big(2[X^2+X+1]-[X^2+xi X+xi^2]-[X^2+xi^2X+xi]Big) = [X] = frac{1}{3}Big([X-1]+[X-xi]+[X-xi^2]Big)$$
which are two expressions of $[X]$ as linear combination of elements of $mathcal{B}$.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Would this be true, if polynomials divisible by $(x^2+1)$ were removed (or if it were over $mathbb{C}$ instead of the reals?
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 31 at 9:52
1
$begingroup$
I edited the answer to take care of the algebraically closed case, but I didn't understand what you mean by removing polynomials divisible by $x^2+1$.
$endgroup$
– Ender Wiggins
Jan 31 at 10:17
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I didn't completely understand your question, as there are many obscure things as Ben pointed out.
However, I assume that you are asking something like this: I have a commutative algebra $A$ over $mathbb{R}$ which is finite-dimensional as an $mathbb{R}$-vector space. In particular, it has to be of the form $Acongmathbb{R}[X_1,ldots,X_n]/(f_1,ldots,f_m)$ for some polynomials $f_1,ldots,f_m$. I fix a monomial order and I assume that ${f_1,ldots,f_m}$ is a Groebner basis for the ideal they generate. Is it true that the set $mathcal{B}$ containing the equivalence classes of all the divisors of the polynomials $f_1,ldots,f_m$ forms a basis for $A$ as a vector space over $mathbb{R}$?
The first trivial answer is of course, not: the classes of $f_1,ldots,f_m$ are all $0$ and they are in $mathcal{B}$. So, let us assume you want only the proper divisors (whence excluding $f_1,ldots,f_m$ and $1$). The answer is still no: ${x^2+1}$ is a Groebner basis for $(x^2+1)$ in $mathbb{R}[x]$ but it has no divisors at all.
Notice that you have to exclude $1$, otherwise ${x^2-1}$ is a Groebner basis for $(x^2-1)$ in $mathbb{R}[x]$ but $mathcal{B}={[x-1],[x+1],[1]}$ which is not free over $mathbb{R}$ (with $[;cdot;]$ I denote the equivalence class in the quotient).
Edit: It doesn't even work over an algebraically closed field: ${X^3-1}$ is a Groebner basis for $(X^3-1)$ in $mathbb{C}[X]$, however the elements in $$mathcal{B}={[X-1],[X-xi],[X-xi^2],[X^2+X+1],[X^2 + xi^2 X+xi],[X^2+xi X+xi^2]}$$
are not linearly independent, where $xi$ is a root of $X^2+X+1$. Indeed
$$[X-xi]+[X-xi^2]-frac{1}{3}Big(2[X^2+X+1]-[X^2+xi X+xi^2]-[X^2+xi^2X+xi]Big) = [X] = frac{1}{3}Big([X-1]+[X-xi]+[X-xi^2]Big)$$
which are two expressions of $[X]$ as linear combination of elements of $mathcal{B}$.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Would this be true, if polynomials divisible by $(x^2+1)$ were removed (or if it were over $mathbb{C}$ instead of the reals?
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 31 at 9:52
1
$begingroup$
I edited the answer to take care of the algebraically closed case, but I didn't understand what you mean by removing polynomials divisible by $x^2+1$.
$endgroup$
– Ender Wiggins
Jan 31 at 10:17
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I didn't completely understand your question, as there are many obscure things as Ben pointed out.
However, I assume that you are asking something like this: I have a commutative algebra $A$ over $mathbb{R}$ which is finite-dimensional as an $mathbb{R}$-vector space. In particular, it has to be of the form $Acongmathbb{R}[X_1,ldots,X_n]/(f_1,ldots,f_m)$ for some polynomials $f_1,ldots,f_m$. I fix a monomial order and I assume that ${f_1,ldots,f_m}$ is a Groebner basis for the ideal they generate. Is it true that the set $mathcal{B}$ containing the equivalence classes of all the divisors of the polynomials $f_1,ldots,f_m$ forms a basis for $A$ as a vector space over $mathbb{R}$?
The first trivial answer is of course, not: the classes of $f_1,ldots,f_m$ are all $0$ and they are in $mathcal{B}$. So, let us assume you want only the proper divisors (whence excluding $f_1,ldots,f_m$ and $1$). The answer is still no: ${x^2+1}$ is a Groebner basis for $(x^2+1)$ in $mathbb{R}[x]$ but it has no divisors at all.
Notice that you have to exclude $1$, otherwise ${x^2-1}$ is a Groebner basis for $(x^2-1)$ in $mathbb{R}[x]$ but $mathcal{B}={[x-1],[x+1],[1]}$ which is not free over $mathbb{R}$ (with $[;cdot;]$ I denote the equivalence class in the quotient).
Edit: It doesn't even work over an algebraically closed field: ${X^3-1}$ is a Groebner basis for $(X^3-1)$ in $mathbb{C}[X]$, however the elements in $$mathcal{B}={[X-1],[X-xi],[X-xi^2],[X^2+X+1],[X^2 + xi^2 X+xi],[X^2+xi X+xi^2]}$$
are not linearly independent, where $xi$ is a root of $X^2+X+1$. Indeed
$$[X-xi]+[X-xi^2]-frac{1}{3}Big(2[X^2+X+1]-[X^2+xi X+xi^2]-[X^2+xi^2X+xi]Big) = [X] = frac{1}{3}Big([X-1]+[X-xi]+[X-xi^2]Big)$$
which are two expressions of $[X]$ as linear combination of elements of $mathcal{B}$.
$endgroup$
I didn't completely understand your question, as there are many obscure things as Ben pointed out.
However, I assume that you are asking something like this: I have a commutative algebra $A$ over $mathbb{R}$ which is finite-dimensional as an $mathbb{R}$-vector space. In particular, it has to be of the form $Acongmathbb{R}[X_1,ldots,X_n]/(f_1,ldots,f_m)$ for some polynomials $f_1,ldots,f_m$. I fix a monomial order and I assume that ${f_1,ldots,f_m}$ is a Groebner basis for the ideal they generate. Is it true that the set $mathcal{B}$ containing the equivalence classes of all the divisors of the polynomials $f_1,ldots,f_m$ forms a basis for $A$ as a vector space over $mathbb{R}$?
The first trivial answer is of course, not: the classes of $f_1,ldots,f_m$ are all $0$ and they are in $mathcal{B}$. So, let us assume you want only the proper divisors (whence excluding $f_1,ldots,f_m$ and $1$). The answer is still no: ${x^2+1}$ is a Groebner basis for $(x^2+1)$ in $mathbb{R}[x]$ but it has no divisors at all.
Notice that you have to exclude $1$, otherwise ${x^2-1}$ is a Groebner basis for $(x^2-1)$ in $mathbb{R}[x]$ but $mathcal{B}={[x-1],[x+1],[1]}$ which is not free over $mathbb{R}$ (with $[;cdot;]$ I denote the equivalence class in the quotient).
Edit: It doesn't even work over an algebraically closed field: ${X^3-1}$ is a Groebner basis for $(X^3-1)$ in $mathbb{C}[X]$, however the elements in $$mathcal{B}={[X-1],[X-xi],[X-xi^2],[X^2+X+1],[X^2 + xi^2 X+xi],[X^2+xi X+xi^2]}$$
are not linearly independent, where $xi$ is a root of $X^2+X+1$. Indeed
$$[X-xi]+[X-xi^2]-frac{1}{3}Big(2[X^2+X+1]-[X^2+xi X+xi^2]-[X^2+xi^2X+xi]Big) = [X] = frac{1}{3}Big([X-1]+[X-xi]+[X-xi^2]Big)$$
which are two expressions of $[X]$ as linear combination of elements of $mathcal{B}$.
edited Jan 31 at 10:14
answered Jan 31 at 9:32
Ender WigginsEnder Wiggins
843321
843321
1
$begingroup$
Would this be true, if polynomials divisible by $(x^2+1)$ were removed (or if it were over $mathbb{C}$ instead of the reals?
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 31 at 9:52
1
$begingroup$
I edited the answer to take care of the algebraically closed case, but I didn't understand what you mean by removing polynomials divisible by $x^2+1$.
$endgroup$
– Ender Wiggins
Jan 31 at 10:17
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Would this be true, if polynomials divisible by $(x^2+1)$ were removed (or if it were over $mathbb{C}$ instead of the reals?
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 31 at 9:52
1
$begingroup$
I edited the answer to take care of the algebraically closed case, but I didn't understand what you mean by removing polynomials divisible by $x^2+1$.
$endgroup$
– Ender Wiggins
Jan 31 at 10:17
1
1
$begingroup$
Would this be true, if polynomials divisible by $(x^2+1)$ were removed (or if it were over $mathbb{C}$ instead of the reals?
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 31 at 9:52
$begingroup$
Would this be true, if polynomials divisible by $(x^2+1)$ were removed (or if it were over $mathbb{C}$ instead of the reals?
$endgroup$
– N00ber
Jan 31 at 9:52
1
1
$begingroup$
I edited the answer to take care of the algebraically closed case, but I didn't understand what you mean by removing polynomials divisible by $x^2+1$.
$endgroup$
– Ender Wiggins
Jan 31 at 10:17
$begingroup$
I edited the answer to take care of the algebraically closed case, but I didn't understand what you mean by removing polynomials divisible by $x^2+1$.
$endgroup$
– Ender Wiggins
Jan 31 at 10:17
add a comment |
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3
$begingroup$
I can't understand your question. Are you asking something about a general finite $mathbb R$-algebra $A$? Or are you asking about the algebra $S = mathbb R[x]/(x^n)$? You say "in particular there exist $f_1,ldots,f_n$ generating the ideal $mathbb R[x]/(x^n)$". This is $S$ which is not a proper ideal, its the whole ring - so it's generated by $1$, or any unit.
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– Ben
Jan 25 at 14:24
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Basically, I was wondering if you can use Grobner basises to express every polynomial in $A$ (general not only $mathbb{R}[x]/(x^n)$) as a linear combination of them and a finite number of their exponents
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– N00ber
Jan 28 at 9:12
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Linear combination with what kind of coefficients?
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– Ben
Jan 28 at 9:36
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For a basis as a module Take $n=1$ and $f_1 =1$. Then any $f$ is a linear comination of elements of ${1}$ namely $f=fcdot 1$. For a basis as a vector space take ${1,x,x^2,ldots,x^{n-1}}$.
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– Ben
Jan 28 at 13:56
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@Ben That is indeed true, and I implicitly worked it out. I rephrased the question in a way that hopefully makes it clearer (after givign it some more thought)
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– N00ber
Jan 30 at 10:51