On the definition of Liouville number












4















Definition: (from Wikipedia)



In number theory, a Liouville number is a real number $x$ with the property that, for every positive integer $n$, there exist integers $p$ and $q$ with $q > 1$ and such that



$$
{displaystyle 0<left|x-{frac {p}{q}}right|<{frac {1}{q^{n}}}.}
$$



A Liouville number can thus be approximated "quite closely" by a sequence of rational numbers. [....]




My question: How can I convince myself that the above definition is not arbitrary. In other words, how nice is to know that a given number $alpha$ is a Liouville number?










share|cite|improve this question




















  • 2




    Well, as touched on in the Wikipedia article, some points of note: All such numbers are transcendental (and thus irrational), were the first numbers to be proven transcendental (which was a notion that was thrown around for up to 200 years prior without a number proven to be such), and can be approximated easily by a sequence of rationals. They are dense in the reals, and thus are also members of an uncountably infinite set. And so on and so forth. I guess my question is more that what do you mean by "how nice" it is?
    – Eevee Trainer
    yesterday








  • 2




    Possibly useful: The Wikipedia article for Diophantine Approximation and these notes.
    – Dave L. Renfro
    yesterday
















4















Definition: (from Wikipedia)



In number theory, a Liouville number is a real number $x$ with the property that, for every positive integer $n$, there exist integers $p$ and $q$ with $q > 1$ and such that



$$
{displaystyle 0<left|x-{frac {p}{q}}right|<{frac {1}{q^{n}}}.}
$$



A Liouville number can thus be approximated "quite closely" by a sequence of rational numbers. [....]




My question: How can I convince myself that the above definition is not arbitrary. In other words, how nice is to know that a given number $alpha$ is a Liouville number?










share|cite|improve this question




















  • 2




    Well, as touched on in the Wikipedia article, some points of note: All such numbers are transcendental (and thus irrational), were the first numbers to be proven transcendental (which was a notion that was thrown around for up to 200 years prior without a number proven to be such), and can be approximated easily by a sequence of rationals. They are dense in the reals, and thus are also members of an uncountably infinite set. And so on and so forth. I guess my question is more that what do you mean by "how nice" it is?
    – Eevee Trainer
    yesterday








  • 2




    Possibly useful: The Wikipedia article for Diophantine Approximation and these notes.
    – Dave L. Renfro
    yesterday














4












4








4


2






Definition: (from Wikipedia)



In number theory, a Liouville number is a real number $x$ with the property that, for every positive integer $n$, there exist integers $p$ and $q$ with $q > 1$ and such that



$$
{displaystyle 0<left|x-{frac {p}{q}}right|<{frac {1}{q^{n}}}.}
$$



A Liouville number can thus be approximated "quite closely" by a sequence of rational numbers. [....]




My question: How can I convince myself that the above definition is not arbitrary. In other words, how nice is to know that a given number $alpha$ is a Liouville number?










share|cite|improve this question
















Definition: (from Wikipedia)



In number theory, a Liouville number is a real number $x$ with the property that, for every positive integer $n$, there exist integers $p$ and $q$ with $q > 1$ and such that



$$
{displaystyle 0<left|x-{frac {p}{q}}right|<{frac {1}{q^{n}}}.}
$$



A Liouville number can thus be approximated "quite closely" by a sequence of rational numbers. [....]




My question: How can I convince myself that the above definition is not arbitrary. In other words, how nice is to know that a given number $alpha$ is a Liouville number?







number-theory elementary-number-theory analytic-number-theory






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited yesterday









Eevee Trainer

4,9971634




4,9971634










asked yesterday









Eduardo

571112




571112








  • 2




    Well, as touched on in the Wikipedia article, some points of note: All such numbers are transcendental (and thus irrational), were the first numbers to be proven transcendental (which was a notion that was thrown around for up to 200 years prior without a number proven to be such), and can be approximated easily by a sequence of rationals. They are dense in the reals, and thus are also members of an uncountably infinite set. And so on and so forth. I guess my question is more that what do you mean by "how nice" it is?
    – Eevee Trainer
    yesterday








  • 2




    Possibly useful: The Wikipedia article for Diophantine Approximation and these notes.
    – Dave L. Renfro
    yesterday














  • 2




    Well, as touched on in the Wikipedia article, some points of note: All such numbers are transcendental (and thus irrational), were the first numbers to be proven transcendental (which was a notion that was thrown around for up to 200 years prior without a number proven to be such), and can be approximated easily by a sequence of rationals. They are dense in the reals, and thus are also members of an uncountably infinite set. And so on and so forth. I guess my question is more that what do you mean by "how nice" it is?
    – Eevee Trainer
    yesterday








  • 2




    Possibly useful: The Wikipedia article for Diophantine Approximation and these notes.
    – Dave L. Renfro
    yesterday








2




2




Well, as touched on in the Wikipedia article, some points of note: All such numbers are transcendental (and thus irrational), were the first numbers to be proven transcendental (which was a notion that was thrown around for up to 200 years prior without a number proven to be such), and can be approximated easily by a sequence of rationals. They are dense in the reals, and thus are also members of an uncountably infinite set. And so on and so forth. I guess my question is more that what do you mean by "how nice" it is?
– Eevee Trainer
yesterday






Well, as touched on in the Wikipedia article, some points of note: All such numbers are transcendental (and thus irrational), were the first numbers to be proven transcendental (which was a notion that was thrown around for up to 200 years prior without a number proven to be such), and can be approximated easily by a sequence of rationals. They are dense in the reals, and thus are also members of an uncountably infinite set. And so on and so forth. I guess my question is more that what do you mean by "how nice" it is?
– Eevee Trainer
yesterday






2




2




Possibly useful: The Wikipedia article for Diophantine Approximation and these notes.
– Dave L. Renfro
yesterday




Possibly useful: The Wikipedia article for Diophantine Approximation and these notes.
– Dave L. Renfro
yesterday










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















3














Not to be that guy, but all definitions are arbitrary. A better question to ask would be "Are there any real numbers that satisfy my definition?"



Thankfully the definition of a Liouville number is "good" in the sense that there are real numbers which are Liouville numbers. Perhaps the most famous one is Liouville's Constant:
$$
lambda = sum_{k=1}^infty 10^{-k!} = 0.1100010000000000000000010ldots
$$

This number has a $1$ at every place in its decimal expansion that is equal to a factorial, and $0$'s everywhere else. You can verify that this number satisfies the definition of a Liouville number directly.



Once we know that the definition is "good" in the sense that there are examples of objects that satisfy the definition, we can ask further questions. Do these objects all belong to some well studied, larger class of objects (are they algebraic or transcendental)? How many objects satisfy the definition? If they live in some ambient set with structure, can we say anything about how they fit in that universe (like do the Liouville numbers form a set of zero measure in $mathbb{R}$)? Are these objects "fundamental" in some way (like can every real number be written as the sum of two Liouville numbers)?



However, as much as I love transcendental number theory, we can also ask the question "Do I really care that these things exists?" And I unfortunately have to concede that 99% of mathematicians, and therefore 99.99999$cdots$% of human beings, have absolutely no use for Liouville numbers on a year to year, let alone day to day, basis. I think their value is far more apparent from an educational and historical perspective than it is from a working mathematician's perspective. And in that sense, you could say that it doesn't really matter if you know that any given number $alpha$ is a Liouville number.






share|cite|improve this answer








New contributor




ItsJustTranscendenceBro is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.


























    1














    Liouville numbers are in fact the most irrational numbers in one sense known as irrationality measure, so hence "nicest" in this sense.



    Let us define an irrationality measure as the least upper bound of $mu$ where $mu$ satisfies $$ 0 < |x - frac{p}{q}| < frac{1}{q^mu}$$ for an infinite number of pairs $(p,q)$ with $q > 0$. As one notices, this has similarities with the definition of the Liouville numbers.



    A Theorem known as the Thue-Siegel-Roth Theorem states that $mu(alpha) = 2$ if $alpha$ is an algebraic integer. We have that $mu(e)= 2$, $mu(pi) < 8$ and many others. The Liouville numbers $beta$ can be shown to be those that satisfy $mu(beta) = infty$.



    To be fair, one could object that this measure is still somewhat arbitrary, but the Thue-Siegel-Roth Theorem shows that it does contain some relevance to the algebraic-transcendental distinction.






    share|cite|improve this answer























      Your Answer





      StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
      return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
      StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
      StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
      });
      });
      }, "mathjax-editing");

      StackExchange.ready(function() {
      var channelOptions = {
      tags: "".split(" "),
      id: "69"
      };
      initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

      StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
      // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
      if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
      StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
      createEditor();
      });
      }
      else {
      createEditor();
      }
      });

      function createEditor() {
      StackExchange.prepareEditor({
      heartbeatType: 'answer',
      autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
      convertImagesToLinks: true,
      noModals: true,
      showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
      reputationToPostImages: 10,
      bindNavPrevention: true,
      postfix: "",
      imageUploader: {
      brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
      contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
      allowUrls: true
      },
      noCode: true, onDemand: true,
      discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
      ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
      });


      }
      });














      draft saved

      draft discarded


















      StackExchange.ready(
      function () {
      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3062255%2fon-the-definition-of-liouville-number%23new-answer', 'question_page');
      }
      );

      Post as a guest















      Required, but never shown

























      2 Answers
      2






      active

      oldest

      votes








      2 Answers
      2






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      3














      Not to be that guy, but all definitions are arbitrary. A better question to ask would be "Are there any real numbers that satisfy my definition?"



      Thankfully the definition of a Liouville number is "good" in the sense that there are real numbers which are Liouville numbers. Perhaps the most famous one is Liouville's Constant:
      $$
      lambda = sum_{k=1}^infty 10^{-k!} = 0.1100010000000000000000010ldots
      $$

      This number has a $1$ at every place in its decimal expansion that is equal to a factorial, and $0$'s everywhere else. You can verify that this number satisfies the definition of a Liouville number directly.



      Once we know that the definition is "good" in the sense that there are examples of objects that satisfy the definition, we can ask further questions. Do these objects all belong to some well studied, larger class of objects (are they algebraic or transcendental)? How many objects satisfy the definition? If they live in some ambient set with structure, can we say anything about how they fit in that universe (like do the Liouville numbers form a set of zero measure in $mathbb{R}$)? Are these objects "fundamental" in some way (like can every real number be written as the sum of two Liouville numbers)?



      However, as much as I love transcendental number theory, we can also ask the question "Do I really care that these things exists?" And I unfortunately have to concede that 99% of mathematicians, and therefore 99.99999$cdots$% of human beings, have absolutely no use for Liouville numbers on a year to year, let alone day to day, basis. I think their value is far more apparent from an educational and historical perspective than it is from a working mathematician's perspective. And in that sense, you could say that it doesn't really matter if you know that any given number $alpha$ is a Liouville number.






      share|cite|improve this answer








      New contributor




      ItsJustTranscendenceBro is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.























        3














        Not to be that guy, but all definitions are arbitrary. A better question to ask would be "Are there any real numbers that satisfy my definition?"



        Thankfully the definition of a Liouville number is "good" in the sense that there are real numbers which are Liouville numbers. Perhaps the most famous one is Liouville's Constant:
        $$
        lambda = sum_{k=1}^infty 10^{-k!} = 0.1100010000000000000000010ldots
        $$

        This number has a $1$ at every place in its decimal expansion that is equal to a factorial, and $0$'s everywhere else. You can verify that this number satisfies the definition of a Liouville number directly.



        Once we know that the definition is "good" in the sense that there are examples of objects that satisfy the definition, we can ask further questions. Do these objects all belong to some well studied, larger class of objects (are they algebraic or transcendental)? How many objects satisfy the definition? If they live in some ambient set with structure, can we say anything about how they fit in that universe (like do the Liouville numbers form a set of zero measure in $mathbb{R}$)? Are these objects "fundamental" in some way (like can every real number be written as the sum of two Liouville numbers)?



        However, as much as I love transcendental number theory, we can also ask the question "Do I really care that these things exists?" And I unfortunately have to concede that 99% of mathematicians, and therefore 99.99999$cdots$% of human beings, have absolutely no use for Liouville numbers on a year to year, let alone day to day, basis. I think their value is far more apparent from an educational and historical perspective than it is from a working mathematician's perspective. And in that sense, you could say that it doesn't really matter if you know that any given number $alpha$ is a Liouville number.






        share|cite|improve this answer








        New contributor




        ItsJustTranscendenceBro is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.





















          3












          3








          3






          Not to be that guy, but all definitions are arbitrary. A better question to ask would be "Are there any real numbers that satisfy my definition?"



          Thankfully the definition of a Liouville number is "good" in the sense that there are real numbers which are Liouville numbers. Perhaps the most famous one is Liouville's Constant:
          $$
          lambda = sum_{k=1}^infty 10^{-k!} = 0.1100010000000000000000010ldots
          $$

          This number has a $1$ at every place in its decimal expansion that is equal to a factorial, and $0$'s everywhere else. You can verify that this number satisfies the definition of a Liouville number directly.



          Once we know that the definition is "good" in the sense that there are examples of objects that satisfy the definition, we can ask further questions. Do these objects all belong to some well studied, larger class of objects (are they algebraic or transcendental)? How many objects satisfy the definition? If they live in some ambient set with structure, can we say anything about how they fit in that universe (like do the Liouville numbers form a set of zero measure in $mathbb{R}$)? Are these objects "fundamental" in some way (like can every real number be written as the sum of two Liouville numbers)?



          However, as much as I love transcendental number theory, we can also ask the question "Do I really care that these things exists?" And I unfortunately have to concede that 99% of mathematicians, and therefore 99.99999$cdots$% of human beings, have absolutely no use for Liouville numbers on a year to year, let alone day to day, basis. I think their value is far more apparent from an educational and historical perspective than it is from a working mathematician's perspective. And in that sense, you could say that it doesn't really matter if you know that any given number $alpha$ is a Liouville number.






          share|cite|improve this answer








          New contributor




          ItsJustTranscendenceBro is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.









          Not to be that guy, but all definitions are arbitrary. A better question to ask would be "Are there any real numbers that satisfy my definition?"



          Thankfully the definition of a Liouville number is "good" in the sense that there are real numbers which are Liouville numbers. Perhaps the most famous one is Liouville's Constant:
          $$
          lambda = sum_{k=1}^infty 10^{-k!} = 0.1100010000000000000000010ldots
          $$

          This number has a $1$ at every place in its decimal expansion that is equal to a factorial, and $0$'s everywhere else. You can verify that this number satisfies the definition of a Liouville number directly.



          Once we know that the definition is "good" in the sense that there are examples of objects that satisfy the definition, we can ask further questions. Do these objects all belong to some well studied, larger class of objects (are they algebraic or transcendental)? How many objects satisfy the definition? If they live in some ambient set with structure, can we say anything about how they fit in that universe (like do the Liouville numbers form a set of zero measure in $mathbb{R}$)? Are these objects "fundamental" in some way (like can every real number be written as the sum of two Liouville numbers)?



          However, as much as I love transcendental number theory, we can also ask the question "Do I really care that these things exists?" And I unfortunately have to concede that 99% of mathematicians, and therefore 99.99999$cdots$% of human beings, have absolutely no use for Liouville numbers on a year to year, let alone day to day, basis. I think their value is far more apparent from an educational and historical perspective than it is from a working mathematician's perspective. And in that sense, you could say that it doesn't really matter if you know that any given number $alpha$ is a Liouville number.







          share|cite|improve this answer








          New contributor




          ItsJustTranscendenceBro is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.









          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer






          New contributor




          ItsJustTranscendenceBro is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.









          answered yesterday









          ItsJustTranscendenceBro

          1712




          1712




          New contributor




          ItsJustTranscendenceBro is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.





          New contributor





          ItsJustTranscendenceBro is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.






          ItsJustTranscendenceBro is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.























              1














              Liouville numbers are in fact the most irrational numbers in one sense known as irrationality measure, so hence "nicest" in this sense.



              Let us define an irrationality measure as the least upper bound of $mu$ where $mu$ satisfies $$ 0 < |x - frac{p}{q}| < frac{1}{q^mu}$$ for an infinite number of pairs $(p,q)$ with $q > 0$. As one notices, this has similarities with the definition of the Liouville numbers.



              A Theorem known as the Thue-Siegel-Roth Theorem states that $mu(alpha) = 2$ if $alpha$ is an algebraic integer. We have that $mu(e)= 2$, $mu(pi) < 8$ and many others. The Liouville numbers $beta$ can be shown to be those that satisfy $mu(beta) = infty$.



              To be fair, one could object that this measure is still somewhat arbitrary, but the Thue-Siegel-Roth Theorem shows that it does contain some relevance to the algebraic-transcendental distinction.






              share|cite|improve this answer




























                1














                Liouville numbers are in fact the most irrational numbers in one sense known as irrationality measure, so hence "nicest" in this sense.



                Let us define an irrationality measure as the least upper bound of $mu$ where $mu$ satisfies $$ 0 < |x - frac{p}{q}| < frac{1}{q^mu}$$ for an infinite number of pairs $(p,q)$ with $q > 0$. As one notices, this has similarities with the definition of the Liouville numbers.



                A Theorem known as the Thue-Siegel-Roth Theorem states that $mu(alpha) = 2$ if $alpha$ is an algebraic integer. We have that $mu(e)= 2$, $mu(pi) < 8$ and many others. The Liouville numbers $beta$ can be shown to be those that satisfy $mu(beta) = infty$.



                To be fair, one could object that this measure is still somewhat arbitrary, but the Thue-Siegel-Roth Theorem shows that it does contain some relevance to the algebraic-transcendental distinction.






                share|cite|improve this answer


























                  1












                  1








                  1






                  Liouville numbers are in fact the most irrational numbers in one sense known as irrationality measure, so hence "nicest" in this sense.



                  Let us define an irrationality measure as the least upper bound of $mu$ where $mu$ satisfies $$ 0 < |x - frac{p}{q}| < frac{1}{q^mu}$$ for an infinite number of pairs $(p,q)$ with $q > 0$. As one notices, this has similarities with the definition of the Liouville numbers.



                  A Theorem known as the Thue-Siegel-Roth Theorem states that $mu(alpha) = 2$ if $alpha$ is an algebraic integer. We have that $mu(e)= 2$, $mu(pi) < 8$ and many others. The Liouville numbers $beta$ can be shown to be those that satisfy $mu(beta) = infty$.



                  To be fair, one could object that this measure is still somewhat arbitrary, but the Thue-Siegel-Roth Theorem shows that it does contain some relevance to the algebraic-transcendental distinction.






                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  Liouville numbers are in fact the most irrational numbers in one sense known as irrationality measure, so hence "nicest" in this sense.



                  Let us define an irrationality measure as the least upper bound of $mu$ where $mu$ satisfies $$ 0 < |x - frac{p}{q}| < frac{1}{q^mu}$$ for an infinite number of pairs $(p,q)$ with $q > 0$. As one notices, this has similarities with the definition of the Liouville numbers.



                  A Theorem known as the Thue-Siegel-Roth Theorem states that $mu(alpha) = 2$ if $alpha$ is an algebraic integer. We have that $mu(e)= 2$, $mu(pi) < 8$ and many others. The Liouville numbers $beta$ can be shown to be those that satisfy $mu(beta) = infty$.



                  To be fair, one could object that this measure is still somewhat arbitrary, but the Thue-Siegel-Roth Theorem shows that it does contain some relevance to the algebraic-transcendental distinction.







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  edited yesterday

























                  answered yesterday









                  twnly

                  52119




                  52119






























                      draft saved

                      draft discarded




















































                      Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid



                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                      Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.





                      Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.


                      Please pay close attention to the following guidance:


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid



                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                      draft saved


                      draft discarded














                      StackExchange.ready(
                      function () {
                      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3062255%2fon-the-definition-of-liouville-number%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                      }
                      );

                      Post as a guest















                      Required, but never shown





















































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown

































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown







                      Popular posts from this blog

                      Mario Kart Wii

                      What does “Dominus providebit” mean?

                      Antonio Litta Visconti Arese