Why was the engine of the launch vehicle recently tested in Iran “not a very good missile engine”?
$begingroup$
The NPR News item What's Iran Up To With Recent Rocket Launch Attempt? by NPR's Geoff Brumfiel, about a recent launch test in Iran includes the following:
Earlier this week, Iran attempted to launch a rocket carrying a satellite into space. The Trump administration says their goal is really to develop long-range weapons. NPR's Geoff Brumfiel looks into what Iran is up to.
[...]
Markus Schiller is the founder of ST Analytics, an independent consultancy in Germany. He's spent a lot of time looking at Iran's space program, and he says there are links to the military. For example, the engines Iran uses on its space rockets have a military origin.
MARKUS SCHILLER: It's actually a missile engine.
BRUMFIEL/NPR: But Schiller says it's not a very good missile engine. It's an old design from the Soviet Union, picked up by the North Koreans and later transferred to Iran. It's clunky and inefficient. To get even a small payload into space requires the rocket to be huge. It takes weeks to set up.
Also, Schiller says, based on photos, Iran's space rocket can't work as a missile. The second stage is just too small. To him, the launch looks nonthreatening.
Question: What actual engine are they talking about, and in what way is it "not a very good missile engine"? Why would this engine require "the rocket to be huge"?
engines launch-vehicle iran
asked Jan 20 at 9:28
uhohuhoh
36.9k18130467
$endgroup$
|
show 6 more comments
$begingroup$
The NPR News item What's Iran Up To With Recent Rocket Launch Attempt? by NPR's Geoff Brumfiel, about a recent launch test in Iran includes the following:
Earlier this week, Iran attempted to launch a rocket carrying a satellite into space. The Trump administration says their goal is really to develop long-range weapons. NPR's Geoff Brumfiel looks into what Iran is up to.
[...]
Markus Schiller is the founder of ST Analytics, an independent consultancy in Germany. He's spent a lot of time looking at Iran's space program, and he says there are links to the military. For example, the engines Iran uses on its space rockets have a military origin.
MARKUS SCHILLER: It's actually a missile engine.
BRUMFIEL/NPR: But Schiller says it's not a very good missile engine. It's an old design from the Soviet Union, picked up by the North Koreans and later transferred to Iran. It's clunky and inefficient. To get even a small payload into space requires the rocket to be huge. It takes weeks to set up.
Also, Schiller says, based on photos, Iran's space rocket can't work as a missile. The second stage is just too small. To him, the launch looks nonthreatening.
Question: What actual engine are they talking about, and in what way is it "not a very good missile engine"? Why would this engine require "the rocket to be huge"?
engines launch-vehicle iran
asked Jan 20 at 9:28
uhohuhoh
36.9k18130467
$endgroup$
6
$begingroup$
taking weeks to set up would make it a very poor missile engine -- the Thor missiles the UK bought from the US were criticised for their 15 minute launch time.
$endgroup$
– JCRM
Jan 20 at 9:49
3
$begingroup$
an inefficient engine requires more fuel, requiring exponentially larger fuel tanks because of the rocket equation.
$endgroup$
– JCRM
Jan 20 at 10:33
1
$begingroup$
your source said it was inefficient, not undersized. Insufficient thrust can be worked around by using multiple engines or a kick stage
$endgroup$
– JCRM
Jan 20 at 11:55
1
$begingroup$
@jamesqf it goes into the trade space because an engine with bad Isp causes the vehicle to get larger for a given mission. So the missiles' launchers, fueling systems, etc, etc all get bigger. But which is cheaper, building a big launch trailer or developing a better engine?
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 22:57
2
$begingroup$
Wouldn't it be more threatening if you're testing an "orbital" rocket design with an engine that has a very low hope of getting anything useful into space? That sounds like a passable IRBM then.
$endgroup$
– Nick T
Jan 21 at 2:01
|
show 6 more comments
$begingroup$
The NPR News item What's Iran Up To With Recent Rocket Launch Attempt? by NPR's Geoff Brumfiel, about a recent launch test in Iran includes the following:
Earlier this week, Iran attempted to launch a rocket carrying a satellite into space. The Trump administration says their goal is really to develop long-range weapons. NPR's Geoff Brumfiel looks into what Iran is up to.
[...]
Markus Schiller is the founder of ST Analytics, an independent consultancy in Germany. He's spent a lot of time looking at Iran's space program, and he says there are links to the military. For example, the engines Iran uses on its space rockets have a military origin.
MARKUS SCHILLER: It's actually a missile engine.
BRUMFIEL/NPR: But Schiller says it's not a very good missile engine. It's an old design from the Soviet Union, picked up by the North Koreans and later transferred to Iran. It's clunky and inefficient. To get even a small payload into space requires the rocket to be huge. It takes weeks to set up.
Also, Schiller says, based on photos, Iran's space rocket can't work as a missile. The second stage is just too small. To him, the launch looks nonthreatening.
Question: What actual engine are they talking about, and in what way is it "not a very good missile engine"? Why would this engine require "the rocket to be huge"?
engines launch-vehicle iran
asked Jan 20 at 9:28
uhohuhoh
36.9k18130467
$endgroup$
The NPR News item What's Iran Up To With Recent Rocket Launch Attempt? by NPR's Geoff Brumfiel, about a recent launch test in Iran includes the following:
Earlier this week, Iran attempted to launch a rocket carrying a satellite into space. The Trump administration says their goal is really to develop long-range weapons. NPR's Geoff Brumfiel looks into what Iran is up to.
[...]
Markus Schiller is the founder of ST Analytics, an independent consultancy in Germany. He's spent a lot of time looking at Iran's space program, and he says there are links to the military. For example, the engines Iran uses on its space rockets have a military origin.
MARKUS SCHILLER: It's actually a missile engine.
BRUMFIEL/NPR: But Schiller says it's not a very good missile engine. It's an old design from the Soviet Union, picked up by the North Koreans and later transferred to Iran. It's clunky and inefficient. To get even a small payload into space requires the rocket to be huge. It takes weeks to set up.
Also, Schiller says, based on photos, Iran's space rocket can't work as a missile. The second stage is just too small. To him, the launch looks nonthreatening.
Question: What actual engine are they talking about, and in what way is it "not a very good missile engine"? Why would this engine require "the rocket to be huge"?
engines launch-vehicle iran
engines launch-vehicle iran
asked Jan 20 at 9:28
uhohuhoh
36.9k18130467
asked Jan 20 at 9:28
uhohuhoh
36.9k18130467
edited Jan 20 at 9:36
uhoh
asked Jan 20 at 9:28
uhohuhoh
36.9k18130467
asked Jan 20 at 9:28
uhohuhoh
36.9k18130467
asked Jan 20 at 9:28
uhohuhoh
36.9k18130467
36.9k18130467
6
$begingroup$
taking weeks to set up would make it a very poor missile engine -- the Thor missiles the UK bought from the US were criticised for their 15 minute launch time.
$endgroup$
– JCRM
Jan 20 at 9:49
3
$begingroup$
an inefficient engine requires more fuel, requiring exponentially larger fuel tanks because of the rocket equation.
$endgroup$
– JCRM
Jan 20 at 10:33
1
$begingroup$
your source said it was inefficient, not undersized. Insufficient thrust can be worked around by using multiple engines or a kick stage
$endgroup$
– JCRM
Jan 20 at 11:55
1
$begingroup$
@jamesqf it goes into the trade space because an engine with bad Isp causes the vehicle to get larger for a given mission. So the missiles' launchers, fueling systems, etc, etc all get bigger. But which is cheaper, building a big launch trailer or developing a better engine?
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 22:57
2
$begingroup$
Wouldn't it be more threatening if you're testing an "orbital" rocket design with an engine that has a very low hope of getting anything useful into space? That sounds like a passable IRBM then.
$endgroup$
– Nick T
Jan 21 at 2:01
|
show 6 more comments
6
$begingroup$
taking weeks to set up would make it a very poor missile engine -- the Thor missiles the UK bought from the US were criticised for their 15 minute launch time.
$endgroup$
– JCRM
Jan 20 at 9:49
3
$begingroup$
an inefficient engine requires more fuel, requiring exponentially larger fuel tanks because of the rocket equation.
$endgroup$
– JCRM
Jan 20 at 10:33
1
$begingroup$
your source said it was inefficient, not undersized. Insufficient thrust can be worked around by using multiple engines or a kick stage
$endgroup$
– JCRM
Jan 20 at 11:55
1
$begingroup$
@jamesqf it goes into the trade space because an engine with bad Isp causes the vehicle to get larger for a given mission. So the missiles' launchers, fueling systems, etc, etc all get bigger. But which is cheaper, building a big launch trailer or developing a better engine?
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 22:57
2
$begingroup$
Wouldn't it be more threatening if you're testing an "orbital" rocket design with an engine that has a very low hope of getting anything useful into space? That sounds like a passable IRBM then.
$endgroup$
– Nick T
Jan 21 at 2:01
6
6
$begingroup$
taking weeks to set up would make it a very poor missile engine -- the Thor missiles the UK bought from the US were criticised for their 15 minute launch time.
$endgroup$
– JCRM
Jan 20 at 9:49
$begingroup$
taking weeks to set up would make it a very poor missile engine -- the Thor missiles the UK bought from the US were criticised for their 15 minute launch time.
$endgroup$
– JCRM
Jan 20 at 9:49
3
3
$begingroup$
an inefficient engine requires more fuel, requiring exponentially larger fuel tanks because of the rocket equation.
$endgroup$
– JCRM
Jan 20 at 10:33
$begingroup$
an inefficient engine requires more fuel, requiring exponentially larger fuel tanks because of the rocket equation.
$endgroup$
– JCRM
Jan 20 at 10:33
1
1
$begingroup$
your source said it was inefficient, not undersized. Insufficient thrust can be worked around by using multiple engines or a kick stage
$endgroup$
– JCRM
Jan 20 at 11:55
$begingroup$
your source said it was inefficient, not undersized. Insufficient thrust can be worked around by using multiple engines or a kick stage
$endgroup$
– JCRM
Jan 20 at 11:55
1
1
$begingroup$
@jamesqf it goes into the trade space because an engine with bad Isp causes the vehicle to get larger for a given mission. So the missiles' launchers, fueling systems, etc, etc all get bigger. But which is cheaper, building a big launch trailer or developing a better engine?
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 22:57
$begingroup$
@jamesqf it goes into the trade space because an engine with bad Isp causes the vehicle to get larger for a given mission. So the missiles' launchers, fueling systems, etc, etc all get bigger. But which is cheaper, building a big launch trailer or developing a better engine?
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 22:57
2
2
$begingroup$
Wouldn't it be more threatening if you're testing an "orbital" rocket design with an engine that has a very low hope of getting anything useful into space? That sounds like a passable IRBM then.
$endgroup$
– Nick T
Jan 21 at 2:01
$begingroup$
Wouldn't it be more threatening if you're testing an "orbital" rocket design with an engine that has a very low hope of getting anything useful into space? That sounds like a passable IRBM then.
$endgroup$
– Nick T
Jan 21 at 2:01
|
show 6 more comments
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
What actual engine are they talking about
Organic Marble has identified it as the S5.2/9D21.
in what way is it "not a very good missile engine"?
It uses a propellant combination, kerosene/IRFNA, common for military missiles in the 1950s-1960s, but now considered obsolete, which yields a poor specific impulse (233 seconds at sea level, or effective exhaust velocity of 2285 m/s).
Why would this engine require "the rocket to be huge"?
Rearranging the rocket equation:
$$Delta v = v_text{e} ln frac {m_0} {m_f}$$
to
$$e ^ frac {Delta v} { v_text{e} } = frac {m_0} {m_f}$$
shows that the mass of a rocket is proportional to the exponential of (delta-v divided by effective exhaust velocity). Small changes in the exhaust velocity can yield large changes in mass.
Assuming ~9400 m/s delta-v required to reach orbit, a 233 second engine requires an initial-mass-to-final-mass ratio of around 60; a good modern kerosene/LOX engine like the RD-180 of Atlas V has a specific impulse of 311 seconds at sea level, which requires a mass ratio of around 20 -- a 3x lighter rocket from a 33% more efficient engine.
The statement "not a very good missile engine" needs qualification; it's not a very good long-range missile engine (which, to be fair, is an important question about Iranian engines if you're a German analyst) because of the low specific impulse. The Scud series the engine is derived from is a ~300km range tactical missile; for such a short flight the required ∆v is much lower; it's thus in a shallower part of the exponential curve and the penalty for poor specific impulse is much smaller.
answered Jan 20 at 15:07
Russell BorogoveRussell Borogove
85.5k3287372
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
tag-teams? is the gamification of SE moving to a new level? ;-)
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 15:11
3
$begingroup$
@uhoh now you can edit all three together and post the perfect answer you seek!
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 15:16
4
$begingroup$
You know I can't pass up a chance to link the rocket equation and specific impulse WP pages.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 20 at 16:37
$begingroup$
Your last sentence provides a lot of insight.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 23:29
1
$begingroup$
I said the propellant combo was obsolete, but, I mean, yeah? Russia fields solid-fueled rockets in the short-range ballistic role these days. SS-21, SS-23, SS-26 for example. Solids are much safer to operate.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 21 at 4:09
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Supplemental answer: Scud missiles were powered by the S5.2/9D21 engine, burning inhibited red fuming nitric acid and kerosene.
Thrust is 132 kN, Isp is "2285 Nskg" or ~233 seconds.
Sources: 1,2,3
answered Jan 20 at 14:14
Organic MarbleOrganic Marble
57.3k3155244
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
Ns/kg is newton-seconds per kilogram, the “correct” SI unit for specific impulse, equivalent to meters per second. Divide by 9.806 to get ISP in seconds.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 20 at 14:23
$begingroup$
Thanks. I was just looking at the wikipedia article and found that in there as well.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:25
2
$begingroup$
And a hell of an oxidizer to handle in the field! Wow.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:26
1
$begingroup$
adding that even under ideal conditions that ISP could only get about 1.5% of launch mass to orbit (and this isn't an ideal rocket) would make this a complete answer.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 14:51
4
$begingroup$
I rolled back the edit because the units on Isp are exactly what was in the source document, hence the quote marks.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:54
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
According to Gunter's web site, this launcher originated in the Shahab-5 IRBM, which is a continuation of the Scud-D / No-dong-A, No-dong-B and Shahab-5 / 6 / Taep’o-dong-2B / Unha-2
And Scud-D is originated in Soviet R-17 military missle
answered Jan 20 at 12:01
Pavel BernshtamPavel Bernshtam
2,759926
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Is it possible to name the engine itself or at least say something about its capability in terms of orbital applications?
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 12:18
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
});
});
}, "mathjax-editing");
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "508"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fspace.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f33721%2fwhy-was-the-engine-of-the-launch-vehicle-recently-tested-in-iran-not-a-very-goo%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
What actual engine are they talking about
Organic Marble has identified it as the S5.2/9D21.
in what way is it "not a very good missile engine"?
It uses a propellant combination, kerosene/IRFNA, common for military missiles in the 1950s-1960s, but now considered obsolete, which yields a poor specific impulse (233 seconds at sea level, or effective exhaust velocity of 2285 m/s).
Why would this engine require "the rocket to be huge"?
Rearranging the rocket equation:
$$Delta v = v_text{e} ln frac {m_0} {m_f}$$
to
$$e ^ frac {Delta v} { v_text{e} } = frac {m_0} {m_f}$$
shows that the mass of a rocket is proportional to the exponential of (delta-v divided by effective exhaust velocity). Small changes in the exhaust velocity can yield large changes in mass.
Assuming ~9400 m/s delta-v required to reach orbit, a 233 second engine requires an initial-mass-to-final-mass ratio of around 60; a good modern kerosene/LOX engine like the RD-180 of Atlas V has a specific impulse of 311 seconds at sea level, which requires a mass ratio of around 20 -- a 3x lighter rocket from a 33% more efficient engine.
The statement "not a very good missile engine" needs qualification; it's not a very good long-range missile engine (which, to be fair, is an important question about Iranian engines if you're a German analyst) because of the low specific impulse. The Scud series the engine is derived from is a ~300km range tactical missile; for such a short flight the required ∆v is much lower; it's thus in a shallower part of the exponential curve and the penalty for poor specific impulse is much smaller.
answered Jan 20 at 15:07
Russell BorogoveRussell Borogove
85.5k3287372
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
tag-teams? is the gamification of SE moving to a new level? ;-)
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 15:11
3
$begingroup$
@uhoh now you can edit all three together and post the perfect answer you seek!
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 15:16
4
$begingroup$
You know I can't pass up a chance to link the rocket equation and specific impulse WP pages.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 20 at 16:37
$begingroup$
Your last sentence provides a lot of insight.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 23:29
1
$begingroup$
I said the propellant combo was obsolete, but, I mean, yeah? Russia fields solid-fueled rockets in the short-range ballistic role these days. SS-21, SS-23, SS-26 for example. Solids are much safer to operate.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 21 at 4:09
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
What actual engine are they talking about
Organic Marble has identified it as the S5.2/9D21.
in what way is it "not a very good missile engine"?
It uses a propellant combination, kerosene/IRFNA, common for military missiles in the 1950s-1960s, but now considered obsolete, which yields a poor specific impulse (233 seconds at sea level, or effective exhaust velocity of 2285 m/s).
Why would this engine require "the rocket to be huge"?
Rearranging the rocket equation:
$$Delta v = v_text{e} ln frac {m_0} {m_f}$$
to
$$e ^ frac {Delta v} { v_text{e} } = frac {m_0} {m_f}$$
shows that the mass of a rocket is proportional to the exponential of (delta-v divided by effective exhaust velocity). Small changes in the exhaust velocity can yield large changes in mass.
Assuming ~9400 m/s delta-v required to reach orbit, a 233 second engine requires an initial-mass-to-final-mass ratio of around 60; a good modern kerosene/LOX engine like the RD-180 of Atlas V has a specific impulse of 311 seconds at sea level, which requires a mass ratio of around 20 -- a 3x lighter rocket from a 33% more efficient engine.
The statement "not a very good missile engine" needs qualification; it's not a very good long-range missile engine (which, to be fair, is an important question about Iranian engines if you're a German analyst) because of the low specific impulse. The Scud series the engine is derived from is a ~300km range tactical missile; for such a short flight the required ∆v is much lower; it's thus in a shallower part of the exponential curve and the penalty for poor specific impulse is much smaller.
answered Jan 20 at 15:07
Russell BorogoveRussell Borogove
85.5k3287372
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
tag-teams? is the gamification of SE moving to a new level? ;-)
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 15:11
3
$begingroup$
@uhoh now you can edit all three together and post the perfect answer you seek!
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 15:16
4
$begingroup$
You know I can't pass up a chance to link the rocket equation and specific impulse WP pages.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 20 at 16:37
$begingroup$
Your last sentence provides a lot of insight.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 23:29
1
$begingroup$
I said the propellant combo was obsolete, but, I mean, yeah? Russia fields solid-fueled rockets in the short-range ballistic role these days. SS-21, SS-23, SS-26 for example. Solids are much safer to operate.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 21 at 4:09
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
What actual engine are they talking about
Organic Marble has identified it as the S5.2/9D21.
in what way is it "not a very good missile engine"?
It uses a propellant combination, kerosene/IRFNA, common for military missiles in the 1950s-1960s, but now considered obsolete, which yields a poor specific impulse (233 seconds at sea level, or effective exhaust velocity of 2285 m/s).
Why would this engine require "the rocket to be huge"?
Rearranging the rocket equation:
$$Delta v = v_text{e} ln frac {m_0} {m_f}$$
to
$$e ^ frac {Delta v} { v_text{e} } = frac {m_0} {m_f}$$
shows that the mass of a rocket is proportional to the exponential of (delta-v divided by effective exhaust velocity). Small changes in the exhaust velocity can yield large changes in mass.
Assuming ~9400 m/s delta-v required to reach orbit, a 233 second engine requires an initial-mass-to-final-mass ratio of around 60; a good modern kerosene/LOX engine like the RD-180 of Atlas V has a specific impulse of 311 seconds at sea level, which requires a mass ratio of around 20 -- a 3x lighter rocket from a 33% more efficient engine.
The statement "not a very good missile engine" needs qualification; it's not a very good long-range missile engine (which, to be fair, is an important question about Iranian engines if you're a German analyst) because of the low specific impulse. The Scud series the engine is derived from is a ~300km range tactical missile; for such a short flight the required ∆v is much lower; it's thus in a shallower part of the exponential curve and the penalty for poor specific impulse is much smaller.
answered Jan 20 at 15:07
Russell BorogoveRussell Borogove
85.5k3287372
$endgroup$
What actual engine are they talking about
Organic Marble has identified it as the S5.2/9D21.
in what way is it "not a very good missile engine"?
It uses a propellant combination, kerosene/IRFNA, common for military missiles in the 1950s-1960s, but now considered obsolete, which yields a poor specific impulse (233 seconds at sea level, or effective exhaust velocity of 2285 m/s).
Why would this engine require "the rocket to be huge"?
Rearranging the rocket equation:
$$Delta v = v_text{e} ln frac {m_0} {m_f}$$
to
$$e ^ frac {Delta v} { v_text{e} } = frac {m_0} {m_f}$$
shows that the mass of a rocket is proportional to the exponential of (delta-v divided by effective exhaust velocity). Small changes in the exhaust velocity can yield large changes in mass.
Assuming ~9400 m/s delta-v required to reach orbit, a 233 second engine requires an initial-mass-to-final-mass ratio of around 60; a good modern kerosene/LOX engine like the RD-180 of Atlas V has a specific impulse of 311 seconds at sea level, which requires a mass ratio of around 20 -- a 3x lighter rocket from a 33% more efficient engine.
The statement "not a very good missile engine" needs qualification; it's not a very good long-range missile engine (which, to be fair, is an important question about Iranian engines if you're a German analyst) because of the low specific impulse. The Scud series the engine is derived from is a ~300km range tactical missile; for such a short flight the required ∆v is much lower; it's thus in a shallower part of the exponential curve and the penalty for poor specific impulse is much smaller.
answered Jan 20 at 15:07
Russell BorogoveRussell Borogove
85.5k3287372
edited Feb 5 at 1:54
answered Jan 20 at 15:07
Russell BorogoveRussell Borogove
85.5k3287372
answered Jan 20 at 15:07
Russell BorogoveRussell Borogove
85.5k3287372
answered Jan 20 at 15:07
Russell BorogoveRussell Borogove
85.5k3287372
85.5k3287372
$begingroup$
tag-teams? is the gamification of SE moving to a new level? ;-)
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 15:11
3
$begingroup$
@uhoh now you can edit all three together and post the perfect answer you seek!
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 15:16
4
$begingroup$
You know I can't pass up a chance to link the rocket equation and specific impulse WP pages.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 20 at 16:37
$begingroup$
Your last sentence provides a lot of insight.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 23:29
1
$begingroup$
I said the propellant combo was obsolete, but, I mean, yeah? Russia fields solid-fueled rockets in the short-range ballistic role these days. SS-21, SS-23, SS-26 for example. Solids are much safer to operate.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 21 at 4:09
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
tag-teams? is the gamification of SE moving to a new level? ;-)
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 15:11
3
$begingroup$
@uhoh now you can edit all three together and post the perfect answer you seek!
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 15:16
4
$begingroup$
You know I can't pass up a chance to link the rocket equation and specific impulse WP pages.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 20 at 16:37
$begingroup$
Your last sentence provides a lot of insight.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 23:29
1
$begingroup$
I said the propellant combo was obsolete, but, I mean, yeah? Russia fields solid-fueled rockets in the short-range ballistic role these days. SS-21, SS-23, SS-26 for example. Solids are much safer to operate.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 21 at 4:09
$begingroup$
tag-teams? is the gamification of SE moving to a new level? ;-)
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 15:11
$begingroup$
tag-teams? is the gamification of SE moving to a new level? ;-)
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 15:11
3
3
$begingroup$
@uhoh now you can edit all three together and post the perfect answer you seek!
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 15:16
$begingroup$
@uhoh now you can edit all three together and post the perfect answer you seek!
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 15:16
4
4
$begingroup$
You know I can't pass up a chance to link the rocket equation and specific impulse WP pages.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 20 at 16:37
$begingroup$
You know I can't pass up a chance to link the rocket equation and specific impulse WP pages.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 20 at 16:37
$begingroup$
Your last sentence provides a lot of insight.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 23:29
$begingroup$
Your last sentence provides a lot of insight.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 23:29
1
1
$begingroup$
I said the propellant combo was obsolete, but, I mean, yeah? Russia fields solid-fueled rockets in the short-range ballistic role these days. SS-21, SS-23, SS-26 for example. Solids are much safer to operate.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 21 at 4:09
$begingroup$
I said the propellant combo was obsolete, but, I mean, yeah? Russia fields solid-fueled rockets in the short-range ballistic role these days. SS-21, SS-23, SS-26 for example. Solids are much safer to operate.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 21 at 4:09
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Supplemental answer: Scud missiles were powered by the S5.2/9D21 engine, burning inhibited red fuming nitric acid and kerosene.
Thrust is 132 kN, Isp is "2285 Nskg" or ~233 seconds.
Sources: 1,2,3
answered Jan 20 at 14:14
Organic MarbleOrganic Marble
57.3k3155244
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
Ns/kg is newton-seconds per kilogram, the “correct” SI unit for specific impulse, equivalent to meters per second. Divide by 9.806 to get ISP in seconds.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 20 at 14:23
$begingroup$
Thanks. I was just looking at the wikipedia article and found that in there as well.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:25
2
$begingroup$
And a hell of an oxidizer to handle in the field! Wow.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:26
1
$begingroup$
adding that even under ideal conditions that ISP could only get about 1.5% of launch mass to orbit (and this isn't an ideal rocket) would make this a complete answer.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 14:51
4
$begingroup$
I rolled back the edit because the units on Isp are exactly what was in the source document, hence the quote marks.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:54
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Supplemental answer: Scud missiles were powered by the S5.2/9D21 engine, burning inhibited red fuming nitric acid and kerosene.
Thrust is 132 kN, Isp is "2285 Nskg" or ~233 seconds.
Sources: 1,2,3
answered Jan 20 at 14:14
Organic MarbleOrganic Marble
57.3k3155244
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
Ns/kg is newton-seconds per kilogram, the “correct” SI unit for specific impulse, equivalent to meters per second. Divide by 9.806 to get ISP in seconds.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 20 at 14:23
$begingroup$
Thanks. I was just looking at the wikipedia article and found that in there as well.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:25
2
$begingroup$
And a hell of an oxidizer to handle in the field! Wow.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:26
1
$begingroup$
adding that even under ideal conditions that ISP could only get about 1.5% of launch mass to orbit (and this isn't an ideal rocket) would make this a complete answer.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 14:51
4
$begingroup$
I rolled back the edit because the units on Isp are exactly what was in the source document, hence the quote marks.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:54
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Supplemental answer: Scud missiles were powered by the S5.2/9D21 engine, burning inhibited red fuming nitric acid and kerosene.
Thrust is 132 kN, Isp is "2285 Nskg" or ~233 seconds.
Sources: 1,2,3
answered Jan 20 at 14:14
Organic MarbleOrganic Marble
57.3k3155244
$endgroup$
Supplemental answer: Scud missiles were powered by the S5.2/9D21 engine, burning inhibited red fuming nitric acid and kerosene.
Thrust is 132 kN, Isp is "2285 Nskg" or ~233 seconds.
Sources: 1,2,3
answered Jan 20 at 14:14
Organic MarbleOrganic Marble
57.3k3155244
edited Jan 20 at 14:54
answered Jan 20 at 14:14
Organic MarbleOrganic Marble
57.3k3155244
answered Jan 20 at 14:14
Organic MarbleOrganic Marble
57.3k3155244
answered Jan 20 at 14:14
Organic MarbleOrganic Marble
57.3k3155244
57.3k3155244
2
$begingroup$
Ns/kg is newton-seconds per kilogram, the “correct” SI unit for specific impulse, equivalent to meters per second. Divide by 9.806 to get ISP in seconds.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 20 at 14:23
$begingroup$
Thanks. I was just looking at the wikipedia article and found that in there as well.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:25
2
$begingroup$
And a hell of an oxidizer to handle in the field! Wow.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:26
1
$begingroup$
adding that even under ideal conditions that ISP could only get about 1.5% of launch mass to orbit (and this isn't an ideal rocket) would make this a complete answer.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 14:51
4
$begingroup$
I rolled back the edit because the units on Isp are exactly what was in the source document, hence the quote marks.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:54
|
show 1 more comment
2
$begingroup$
Ns/kg is newton-seconds per kilogram, the “correct” SI unit for specific impulse, equivalent to meters per second. Divide by 9.806 to get ISP in seconds.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 20 at 14:23
$begingroup$
Thanks. I was just looking at the wikipedia article and found that in there as well.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:25
2
$begingroup$
And a hell of an oxidizer to handle in the field! Wow.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:26
1
$begingroup$
adding that even under ideal conditions that ISP could only get about 1.5% of launch mass to orbit (and this isn't an ideal rocket) would make this a complete answer.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 14:51
4
$begingroup$
I rolled back the edit because the units on Isp are exactly what was in the source document, hence the quote marks.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:54
2
2
$begingroup$
Ns/kg is newton-seconds per kilogram, the “correct” SI unit for specific impulse, equivalent to meters per second. Divide by 9.806 to get ISP in seconds.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 20 at 14:23
$begingroup$
Ns/kg is newton-seconds per kilogram, the “correct” SI unit for specific impulse, equivalent to meters per second. Divide by 9.806 to get ISP in seconds.
$endgroup$
– Russell Borogove
Jan 20 at 14:23
$begingroup$
Thanks. I was just looking at the wikipedia article and found that in there as well.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:25
$begingroup$
Thanks. I was just looking at the wikipedia article and found that in there as well.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:25
2
2
$begingroup$
And a hell of an oxidizer to handle in the field! Wow.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:26
$begingroup$
And a hell of an oxidizer to handle in the field! Wow.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:26
1
1
$begingroup$
adding that even under ideal conditions that ISP could only get about 1.5% of launch mass to orbit (and this isn't an ideal rocket) would make this a complete answer.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 14:51
$begingroup$
adding that even under ideal conditions that ISP could only get about 1.5% of launch mass to orbit (and this isn't an ideal rocket) would make this a complete answer.
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 14:51
4
4
$begingroup$
I rolled back the edit because the units on Isp are exactly what was in the source document, hence the quote marks.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:54
$begingroup$
I rolled back the edit because the units on Isp are exactly what was in the source document, hence the quote marks.
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 14:54
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
According to Gunter's web site, this launcher originated in the Shahab-5 IRBM, which is a continuation of the Scud-D / No-dong-A, No-dong-B and Shahab-5 / 6 / Taep’o-dong-2B / Unha-2
And Scud-D is originated in Soviet R-17 military missle
answered Jan 20 at 12:01
Pavel BernshtamPavel Bernshtam
2,759926
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Is it possible to name the engine itself or at least say something about its capability in terms of orbital applications?
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 12:18
add a comment |
$begingroup$
According to Gunter's web site, this launcher originated in the Shahab-5 IRBM, which is a continuation of the Scud-D / No-dong-A, No-dong-B and Shahab-5 / 6 / Taep’o-dong-2B / Unha-2
And Scud-D is originated in Soviet R-17 military missle
answered Jan 20 at 12:01
Pavel BernshtamPavel Bernshtam
2,759926
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Is it possible to name the engine itself or at least say something about its capability in terms of orbital applications?
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 12:18
add a comment |
$begingroup$
According to Gunter's web site, this launcher originated in the Shahab-5 IRBM, which is a continuation of the Scud-D / No-dong-A, No-dong-B and Shahab-5 / 6 / Taep’o-dong-2B / Unha-2
And Scud-D is originated in Soviet R-17 military missle
answered Jan 20 at 12:01
Pavel BernshtamPavel Bernshtam
2,759926
$endgroup$
According to Gunter's web site, this launcher originated in the Shahab-5 IRBM, which is a continuation of the Scud-D / No-dong-A, No-dong-B and Shahab-5 / 6 / Taep’o-dong-2B / Unha-2
And Scud-D is originated in Soviet R-17 military missle
answered Jan 20 at 12:01
Pavel BernshtamPavel Bernshtam
2,759926
answered Jan 20 at 12:01
Pavel BernshtamPavel Bernshtam
2,759926
answered Jan 20 at 12:01
Pavel BernshtamPavel Bernshtam
2,759926
answered Jan 20 at 12:01
Pavel BernshtamPavel Bernshtam
2,759926
2,759926
1
$begingroup$
Is it possible to name the engine itself or at least say something about its capability in terms of orbital applications?
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 12:18
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Is it possible to name the engine itself or at least say something about its capability in terms of orbital applications?
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 12:18
1
1
$begingroup$
Is it possible to name the engine itself or at least say something about its capability in terms of orbital applications?
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 12:18
$begingroup$
Is it possible to name the engine itself or at least say something about its capability in terms of orbital applications?
$endgroup$
– uhoh
Jan 20 at 12:18
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Space Exploration Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fspace.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f33721%2fwhy-was-the-engine-of-the-launch-vehicle-recently-tested-in-iran-not-a-very-goo%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
6
$begingroup$
taking weeks to set up would make it a very poor missile engine -- the Thor missiles the UK bought from the US were criticised for their 15 minute launch time.
$endgroup$
– JCRM
Jan 20 at 9:49
3
$begingroup$
an inefficient engine requires more fuel, requiring exponentially larger fuel tanks because of the rocket equation.
$endgroup$
– JCRM
Jan 20 at 10:33
1
$begingroup$
your source said it was inefficient, not undersized. Insufficient thrust can be worked around by using multiple engines or a kick stage
$endgroup$
– JCRM
Jan 20 at 11:55
1
$begingroup$
@jamesqf it goes into the trade space because an engine with bad Isp causes the vehicle to get larger for a given mission. So the missiles' launchers, fueling systems, etc, etc all get bigger. But which is cheaper, building a big launch trailer or developing a better engine?
$endgroup$
– Organic Marble
Jan 20 at 22:57
2
$begingroup$
Wouldn't it be more threatening if you're testing an "orbital" rocket design with an engine that has a very low hope of getting anything useful into space? That sounds like a passable IRBM then.
$endgroup$
– Nick T
Jan 21 at 2:01