Should a fundamental theory of numbers not begin with the natural numbers, excluding 0? [on hold]
Though an answer to this question may ultimately include an element of opinion, unresolvable by the methods of mathematics, much at issue is subject to logical critique. Identifying those elements of this topic which are merely opinion should enable us to identify the actual axioms upon which our mathematics is built.
One source Fundamentals of Mathematics introduces the natural numbers using Peano's Axioms beginning with 1. Another source, Set Theory and Logic says:
As our initial description of the natural numbers, we say that they are exactly those objects which can be generated by starting with an initial object $0$ (zero) and from any object $n$ already generated passing to another uniquely determined object $n^prime$, the successor of $n$.
I believe there is at least one entire book written about the history of zero. My understanding is that, for much of recorded history, zero was not treated as a number.
In the first source cited above, the discussion of the theory of numbers begins on page 94, and zero is not introduced until page 111 where the development of the module of the integers begins. Mind you, this is not a "fluffy" book. It is, in fact, so condensed as to be downright brutal. The fact that so much can be said about about numbers without mentioning zero supports my contention that zero is not as fundamental as the natural numbers, assuming we define those as beginning with one.
If the objective is to begin with the most concrete and fundamental concepts, and therefrom abstract the field of mathematics, should a fundamental theory of numbers not begin with one rather than zero? And if not, why not?
By foundational mathematics we shall mean that which is implied in the following excerpt from the diary of a Colonial American school teacher:
June 1, 1756.
Drank Tea at the Majors. The Reasoning of Mathematics is founded on certain and infallible Principles. Every Word they Use, conveys a determinate Idea, and by accurate Definitions they excite the same Ideas in the mind of the Reader that were in the mind of the Writer. When they have defined the Terms they intend to make use of, they premise a few Axioms, or Self evident Principles, that every man must assent to as soon as proposed. They then take for granted certain Postulates, that no one can deny them, such as, that a right Line may be drawn from one given Point to another, and from these plain simple Principles, they have raised most astonishing Speculations, and proved the Extent of the human mind to be more spacious and capable than any other Science.
From the Diary and Autobiography of the co-author of the Declaration of Independence and President of the United States of America.
Using that as our starting point, let us examine the opinion of Bertrand Russell regarding the appropriate starting point of mathematics.
To the average educated person of the present day, the obvious starting-point of mathematics would be the series of whole numbers,
$$1,2,4,4,dots etc.$$
Probably only a person with some mathematical knowledge would think of beginning with 0 instead of with 1, but we will presume this degree of knowledge;
we will take as our starting-point the series
$$0,1,2,4,4,dots n,n+1,dots$$
and it is this series that we shall mean when we speak of the “series of natural numbers.”
Since it is not disputed that the starting point of mathematics could be the set $left{1,2,3,dotsright},$ but a reasonable person may likely dispute that the most natural place to begin is the set proposed by Russell, by the American definition of foundational mathematics, it is clear that the natural numbers should be defined beginning with '1'.
elementary-number-theory elementary-set-theory logic
put on hold as primarily opinion-based by Lord Shark the Unknown, spaceisdarkgreen, Peter, Hans Lundmark, metamorphy 2 days ago
Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
|
show 6 more comments
Though an answer to this question may ultimately include an element of opinion, unresolvable by the methods of mathematics, much at issue is subject to logical critique. Identifying those elements of this topic which are merely opinion should enable us to identify the actual axioms upon which our mathematics is built.
One source Fundamentals of Mathematics introduces the natural numbers using Peano's Axioms beginning with 1. Another source, Set Theory and Logic says:
As our initial description of the natural numbers, we say that they are exactly those objects which can be generated by starting with an initial object $0$ (zero) and from any object $n$ already generated passing to another uniquely determined object $n^prime$, the successor of $n$.
I believe there is at least one entire book written about the history of zero. My understanding is that, for much of recorded history, zero was not treated as a number.
In the first source cited above, the discussion of the theory of numbers begins on page 94, and zero is not introduced until page 111 where the development of the module of the integers begins. Mind you, this is not a "fluffy" book. It is, in fact, so condensed as to be downright brutal. The fact that so much can be said about about numbers without mentioning zero supports my contention that zero is not as fundamental as the natural numbers, assuming we define those as beginning with one.
If the objective is to begin with the most concrete and fundamental concepts, and therefrom abstract the field of mathematics, should a fundamental theory of numbers not begin with one rather than zero? And if not, why not?
By foundational mathematics we shall mean that which is implied in the following excerpt from the diary of a Colonial American school teacher:
June 1, 1756.
Drank Tea at the Majors. The Reasoning of Mathematics is founded on certain and infallible Principles. Every Word they Use, conveys a determinate Idea, and by accurate Definitions they excite the same Ideas in the mind of the Reader that were in the mind of the Writer. When they have defined the Terms they intend to make use of, they premise a few Axioms, or Self evident Principles, that every man must assent to as soon as proposed. They then take for granted certain Postulates, that no one can deny them, such as, that a right Line may be drawn from one given Point to another, and from these plain simple Principles, they have raised most astonishing Speculations, and proved the Extent of the human mind to be more spacious and capable than any other Science.
From the Diary and Autobiography of the co-author of the Declaration of Independence and President of the United States of America.
Using that as our starting point, let us examine the opinion of Bertrand Russell regarding the appropriate starting point of mathematics.
To the average educated person of the present day, the obvious starting-point of mathematics would be the series of whole numbers,
$$1,2,4,4,dots etc.$$
Probably only a person with some mathematical knowledge would think of beginning with 0 instead of with 1, but we will presume this degree of knowledge;
we will take as our starting-point the series
$$0,1,2,4,4,dots n,n+1,dots$$
and it is this series that we shall mean when we speak of the “series of natural numbers.”
Since it is not disputed that the starting point of mathematics could be the set $left{1,2,3,dotsright},$ but a reasonable person may likely dispute that the most natural place to begin is the set proposed by Russell, by the American definition of foundational mathematics, it is clear that the natural numbers should be defined beginning with '1'.
elementary-number-theory elementary-set-theory logic
put on hold as primarily opinion-based by Lord Shark the Unknown, spaceisdarkgreen, Peter, Hans Lundmark, metamorphy 2 days ago
Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
1
zero is not "unnatural". If noone survives an airplane-crash, we can say , there were $0$ survivors. It is a matter of taste whether we should start with $1$ or with $0$. In fact, both philosophies are supported by many mathematicians.
– Peter
2 days ago
1
I think the same, historically it makes more sense to start from one, not from zero. However this is a matter of taste and, nowadays, it is common start with zero by many reasons, one of them is that it is important in informatics start the count on a list from zero instead of one. Other reason could be because it simplifies things a bit in the Peano arithmetic
– Masacroso
2 days ago
@Masacroso. I think that your comment is good enough to be an answer.
– md2perpe
2 days ago
1
See this post for different traditions regarding $mathbb N$ abd $0$.
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
2 days ago
What counts as numbers is the sucecssion starting from "somewhere" and going on indefinitely iterating the successor operation. Thus, there is no way to find any difference between the progression $0,1,2,ldots$ and the progression $1,2,3, ldots$.
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
2 days ago
|
show 6 more comments
Though an answer to this question may ultimately include an element of opinion, unresolvable by the methods of mathematics, much at issue is subject to logical critique. Identifying those elements of this topic which are merely opinion should enable us to identify the actual axioms upon which our mathematics is built.
One source Fundamentals of Mathematics introduces the natural numbers using Peano's Axioms beginning with 1. Another source, Set Theory and Logic says:
As our initial description of the natural numbers, we say that they are exactly those objects which can be generated by starting with an initial object $0$ (zero) and from any object $n$ already generated passing to another uniquely determined object $n^prime$, the successor of $n$.
I believe there is at least one entire book written about the history of zero. My understanding is that, for much of recorded history, zero was not treated as a number.
In the first source cited above, the discussion of the theory of numbers begins on page 94, and zero is not introduced until page 111 where the development of the module of the integers begins. Mind you, this is not a "fluffy" book. It is, in fact, so condensed as to be downright brutal. The fact that so much can be said about about numbers without mentioning zero supports my contention that zero is not as fundamental as the natural numbers, assuming we define those as beginning with one.
If the objective is to begin with the most concrete and fundamental concepts, and therefrom abstract the field of mathematics, should a fundamental theory of numbers not begin with one rather than zero? And if not, why not?
By foundational mathematics we shall mean that which is implied in the following excerpt from the diary of a Colonial American school teacher:
June 1, 1756.
Drank Tea at the Majors. The Reasoning of Mathematics is founded on certain and infallible Principles. Every Word they Use, conveys a determinate Idea, and by accurate Definitions they excite the same Ideas in the mind of the Reader that were in the mind of the Writer. When they have defined the Terms they intend to make use of, they premise a few Axioms, or Self evident Principles, that every man must assent to as soon as proposed. They then take for granted certain Postulates, that no one can deny them, such as, that a right Line may be drawn from one given Point to another, and from these plain simple Principles, they have raised most astonishing Speculations, and proved the Extent of the human mind to be more spacious and capable than any other Science.
From the Diary and Autobiography of the co-author of the Declaration of Independence and President of the United States of America.
Using that as our starting point, let us examine the opinion of Bertrand Russell regarding the appropriate starting point of mathematics.
To the average educated person of the present day, the obvious starting-point of mathematics would be the series of whole numbers,
$$1,2,4,4,dots etc.$$
Probably only a person with some mathematical knowledge would think of beginning with 0 instead of with 1, but we will presume this degree of knowledge;
we will take as our starting-point the series
$$0,1,2,4,4,dots n,n+1,dots$$
and it is this series that we shall mean when we speak of the “series of natural numbers.”
Since it is not disputed that the starting point of mathematics could be the set $left{1,2,3,dotsright},$ but a reasonable person may likely dispute that the most natural place to begin is the set proposed by Russell, by the American definition of foundational mathematics, it is clear that the natural numbers should be defined beginning with '1'.
elementary-number-theory elementary-set-theory logic
Though an answer to this question may ultimately include an element of opinion, unresolvable by the methods of mathematics, much at issue is subject to logical critique. Identifying those elements of this topic which are merely opinion should enable us to identify the actual axioms upon which our mathematics is built.
One source Fundamentals of Mathematics introduces the natural numbers using Peano's Axioms beginning with 1. Another source, Set Theory and Logic says:
As our initial description of the natural numbers, we say that they are exactly those objects which can be generated by starting with an initial object $0$ (zero) and from any object $n$ already generated passing to another uniquely determined object $n^prime$, the successor of $n$.
I believe there is at least one entire book written about the history of zero. My understanding is that, for much of recorded history, zero was not treated as a number.
In the first source cited above, the discussion of the theory of numbers begins on page 94, and zero is not introduced until page 111 where the development of the module of the integers begins. Mind you, this is not a "fluffy" book. It is, in fact, so condensed as to be downright brutal. The fact that so much can be said about about numbers without mentioning zero supports my contention that zero is not as fundamental as the natural numbers, assuming we define those as beginning with one.
If the objective is to begin with the most concrete and fundamental concepts, and therefrom abstract the field of mathematics, should a fundamental theory of numbers not begin with one rather than zero? And if not, why not?
By foundational mathematics we shall mean that which is implied in the following excerpt from the diary of a Colonial American school teacher:
June 1, 1756.
Drank Tea at the Majors. The Reasoning of Mathematics is founded on certain and infallible Principles. Every Word they Use, conveys a determinate Idea, and by accurate Definitions they excite the same Ideas in the mind of the Reader that were in the mind of the Writer. When they have defined the Terms they intend to make use of, they premise a few Axioms, or Self evident Principles, that every man must assent to as soon as proposed. They then take for granted certain Postulates, that no one can deny them, such as, that a right Line may be drawn from one given Point to another, and from these plain simple Principles, they have raised most astonishing Speculations, and proved the Extent of the human mind to be more spacious and capable than any other Science.
From the Diary and Autobiography of the co-author of the Declaration of Independence and President of the United States of America.
Using that as our starting point, let us examine the opinion of Bertrand Russell regarding the appropriate starting point of mathematics.
To the average educated person of the present day, the obvious starting-point of mathematics would be the series of whole numbers,
$$1,2,4,4,dots etc.$$
Probably only a person with some mathematical knowledge would think of beginning with 0 instead of with 1, but we will presume this degree of knowledge;
we will take as our starting-point the series
$$0,1,2,4,4,dots n,n+1,dots$$
and it is this series that we shall mean when we speak of the “series of natural numbers.”
Since it is not disputed that the starting point of mathematics could be the set $left{1,2,3,dotsright},$ but a reasonable person may likely dispute that the most natural place to begin is the set proposed by Russell, by the American definition of foundational mathematics, it is clear that the natural numbers should be defined beginning with '1'.
elementary-number-theory elementary-set-theory logic
elementary-number-theory elementary-set-theory logic
edited yesterday
Steven Hatton
asked 2 days ago
Steven HattonSteven Hatton
735315
735315
put on hold as primarily opinion-based by Lord Shark the Unknown, spaceisdarkgreen, Peter, Hans Lundmark, metamorphy 2 days ago
Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
put on hold as primarily opinion-based by Lord Shark the Unknown, spaceisdarkgreen, Peter, Hans Lundmark, metamorphy 2 days ago
Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
1
zero is not "unnatural". If noone survives an airplane-crash, we can say , there were $0$ survivors. It is a matter of taste whether we should start with $1$ or with $0$. In fact, both philosophies are supported by many mathematicians.
– Peter
2 days ago
1
I think the same, historically it makes more sense to start from one, not from zero. However this is a matter of taste and, nowadays, it is common start with zero by many reasons, one of them is that it is important in informatics start the count on a list from zero instead of one. Other reason could be because it simplifies things a bit in the Peano arithmetic
– Masacroso
2 days ago
@Masacroso. I think that your comment is good enough to be an answer.
– md2perpe
2 days ago
1
See this post for different traditions regarding $mathbb N$ abd $0$.
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
2 days ago
What counts as numbers is the sucecssion starting from "somewhere" and going on indefinitely iterating the successor operation. Thus, there is no way to find any difference between the progression $0,1,2,ldots$ and the progression $1,2,3, ldots$.
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
2 days ago
|
show 6 more comments
1
zero is not "unnatural". If noone survives an airplane-crash, we can say , there were $0$ survivors. It is a matter of taste whether we should start with $1$ or with $0$. In fact, both philosophies are supported by many mathematicians.
– Peter
2 days ago
1
I think the same, historically it makes more sense to start from one, not from zero. However this is a matter of taste and, nowadays, it is common start with zero by many reasons, one of them is that it is important in informatics start the count on a list from zero instead of one. Other reason could be because it simplifies things a bit in the Peano arithmetic
– Masacroso
2 days ago
@Masacroso. I think that your comment is good enough to be an answer.
– md2perpe
2 days ago
1
See this post for different traditions regarding $mathbb N$ abd $0$.
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
2 days ago
What counts as numbers is the sucecssion starting from "somewhere" and going on indefinitely iterating the successor operation. Thus, there is no way to find any difference between the progression $0,1,2,ldots$ and the progression $1,2,3, ldots$.
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
2 days ago
1
1
zero is not "unnatural". If noone survives an airplane-crash, we can say , there were $0$ survivors. It is a matter of taste whether we should start with $1$ or with $0$. In fact, both philosophies are supported by many mathematicians.
– Peter
2 days ago
zero is not "unnatural". If noone survives an airplane-crash, we can say , there were $0$ survivors. It is a matter of taste whether we should start with $1$ or with $0$. In fact, both philosophies are supported by many mathematicians.
– Peter
2 days ago
1
1
I think the same, historically it makes more sense to start from one, not from zero. However this is a matter of taste and, nowadays, it is common start with zero by many reasons, one of them is that it is important in informatics start the count on a list from zero instead of one. Other reason could be because it simplifies things a bit in the Peano arithmetic
– Masacroso
2 days ago
I think the same, historically it makes more sense to start from one, not from zero. However this is a matter of taste and, nowadays, it is common start with zero by many reasons, one of them is that it is important in informatics start the count on a list from zero instead of one. Other reason could be because it simplifies things a bit in the Peano arithmetic
– Masacroso
2 days ago
@Masacroso. I think that your comment is good enough to be an answer.
– md2perpe
2 days ago
@Masacroso. I think that your comment is good enough to be an answer.
– md2perpe
2 days ago
1
1
See this post for different traditions regarding $mathbb N$ abd $0$.
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
2 days ago
See this post for different traditions regarding $mathbb N$ abd $0$.
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
2 days ago
What counts as numbers is the sucecssion starting from "somewhere" and going on indefinitely iterating the successor operation. Thus, there is no way to find any difference between the progression $0,1,2,ldots$ and the progression $1,2,3, ldots$.
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
2 days ago
What counts as numbers is the sucecssion starting from "somewhere" and going on indefinitely iterating the successor operation. Thus, there is no way to find any difference between the progression $0,1,2,ldots$ and the progression $1,2,3, ldots$.
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
2 days ago
|
show 6 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
The reasons that I know about why some mathematicians start from zero instead of one:
Donald Knuth said in his book Concrete mathematics (if my memory is not failing) that it is better to include the zero in the sets of naturals because in computer science have more advantages (about efficient use of memory in computations) start the count on a list (an array with only one row) from zero instead of one.
in the book Analysis I of Terence Tao he start the naturals also from zero, and he says that this approach makes things simpler when one define the Peano arithmetic (by example the successor function is more "simple"). This means that proofs about the arithmetic of naturals simplifies a bit.
Any mathematician have its own reasons to use one more than the other. If you ask me: it is more convenient start from zero for many other reasons, as the power series, that start with the "zero power" (what is assumed to have the value one), so in series the common practice is start the count from zero. However, for finite sums, it is common to start from one (because one can track easily the quantity of addends), etc...
However it seems true to me that the zero it is not as "natural", from a historical perspective. By example Romans doesn't had a number for the zero, and it seems more natural to discover the numbers from positive ones, rather than first thing about the existence of nothing.
I dont know if this answer your question.
I have a degree in computer science, so I certainly understand the convenience of counting from 0, but the traditional goal of foundational mathematics, since Euclid or earlier, has been to identify the most fundamental concepts from which all others may be derived, the appeal to computer science seem specious.
– Steven Hatton
2 days ago
@StevenHatton I see. However it is easy to prove that start from zero or one doesn't change the rules an consequences of Peano axioms, so, in this sense, some mathematicians prefer the use of zero. The unique real difference seems to be historic or pedagogical
– Masacroso
2 days ago
add a comment |
Well, it doesn't really matter. A semigroup $S$ can always be extended to a monoid $Scup{e}$ by adjoining a unit element $e$.
Here the natural numbers without 0 form a semigroup with the operation of addition. Adjoining the zero turns the natural numbers with 0 into a (commutative) monoid.
This doesn’t really answer the question unless you elaborate
– Ant
2 days ago
I believe that is called circulus in probando.
– Steven Hatton
2 days ago
@Wuestenfux I really like your answer. Maybe you should include the statement that from an algebraic point of view there is not much difference as we have a way to pass to a monoid. Otherwise this might seem to be a bit unrelated to the question to other people.
– Severin Schraven
2 days ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
The reasons that I know about why some mathematicians start from zero instead of one:
Donald Knuth said in his book Concrete mathematics (if my memory is not failing) that it is better to include the zero in the sets of naturals because in computer science have more advantages (about efficient use of memory in computations) start the count on a list (an array with only one row) from zero instead of one.
in the book Analysis I of Terence Tao he start the naturals also from zero, and he says that this approach makes things simpler when one define the Peano arithmetic (by example the successor function is more "simple"). This means that proofs about the arithmetic of naturals simplifies a bit.
Any mathematician have its own reasons to use one more than the other. If you ask me: it is more convenient start from zero for many other reasons, as the power series, that start with the "zero power" (what is assumed to have the value one), so in series the common practice is start the count from zero. However, for finite sums, it is common to start from one (because one can track easily the quantity of addends), etc...
However it seems true to me that the zero it is not as "natural", from a historical perspective. By example Romans doesn't had a number for the zero, and it seems more natural to discover the numbers from positive ones, rather than first thing about the existence of nothing.
I dont know if this answer your question.
I have a degree in computer science, so I certainly understand the convenience of counting from 0, but the traditional goal of foundational mathematics, since Euclid or earlier, has been to identify the most fundamental concepts from which all others may be derived, the appeal to computer science seem specious.
– Steven Hatton
2 days ago
@StevenHatton I see. However it is easy to prove that start from zero or one doesn't change the rules an consequences of Peano axioms, so, in this sense, some mathematicians prefer the use of zero. The unique real difference seems to be historic or pedagogical
– Masacroso
2 days ago
add a comment |
The reasons that I know about why some mathematicians start from zero instead of one:
Donald Knuth said in his book Concrete mathematics (if my memory is not failing) that it is better to include the zero in the sets of naturals because in computer science have more advantages (about efficient use of memory in computations) start the count on a list (an array with only one row) from zero instead of one.
in the book Analysis I of Terence Tao he start the naturals also from zero, and he says that this approach makes things simpler when one define the Peano arithmetic (by example the successor function is more "simple"). This means that proofs about the arithmetic of naturals simplifies a bit.
Any mathematician have its own reasons to use one more than the other. If you ask me: it is more convenient start from zero for many other reasons, as the power series, that start with the "zero power" (what is assumed to have the value one), so in series the common practice is start the count from zero. However, for finite sums, it is common to start from one (because one can track easily the quantity of addends), etc...
However it seems true to me that the zero it is not as "natural", from a historical perspective. By example Romans doesn't had a number for the zero, and it seems more natural to discover the numbers from positive ones, rather than first thing about the existence of nothing.
I dont know if this answer your question.
I have a degree in computer science, so I certainly understand the convenience of counting from 0, but the traditional goal of foundational mathematics, since Euclid or earlier, has been to identify the most fundamental concepts from which all others may be derived, the appeal to computer science seem specious.
– Steven Hatton
2 days ago
@StevenHatton I see. However it is easy to prove that start from zero or one doesn't change the rules an consequences of Peano axioms, so, in this sense, some mathematicians prefer the use of zero. The unique real difference seems to be historic or pedagogical
– Masacroso
2 days ago
add a comment |
The reasons that I know about why some mathematicians start from zero instead of one:
Donald Knuth said in his book Concrete mathematics (if my memory is not failing) that it is better to include the zero in the sets of naturals because in computer science have more advantages (about efficient use of memory in computations) start the count on a list (an array with only one row) from zero instead of one.
in the book Analysis I of Terence Tao he start the naturals also from zero, and he says that this approach makes things simpler when one define the Peano arithmetic (by example the successor function is more "simple"). This means that proofs about the arithmetic of naturals simplifies a bit.
Any mathematician have its own reasons to use one more than the other. If you ask me: it is more convenient start from zero for many other reasons, as the power series, that start with the "zero power" (what is assumed to have the value one), so in series the common practice is start the count from zero. However, for finite sums, it is common to start from one (because one can track easily the quantity of addends), etc...
However it seems true to me that the zero it is not as "natural", from a historical perspective. By example Romans doesn't had a number for the zero, and it seems more natural to discover the numbers from positive ones, rather than first thing about the existence of nothing.
I dont know if this answer your question.
The reasons that I know about why some mathematicians start from zero instead of one:
Donald Knuth said in his book Concrete mathematics (if my memory is not failing) that it is better to include the zero in the sets of naturals because in computer science have more advantages (about efficient use of memory in computations) start the count on a list (an array with only one row) from zero instead of one.
in the book Analysis I of Terence Tao he start the naturals also from zero, and he says that this approach makes things simpler when one define the Peano arithmetic (by example the successor function is more "simple"). This means that proofs about the arithmetic of naturals simplifies a bit.
Any mathematician have its own reasons to use one more than the other. If you ask me: it is more convenient start from zero for many other reasons, as the power series, that start with the "zero power" (what is assumed to have the value one), so in series the common practice is start the count from zero. However, for finite sums, it is common to start from one (because one can track easily the quantity of addends), etc...
However it seems true to me that the zero it is not as "natural", from a historical perspective. By example Romans doesn't had a number for the zero, and it seems more natural to discover the numbers from positive ones, rather than first thing about the existence of nothing.
I dont know if this answer your question.
answered 2 days ago
MasacrosoMasacroso
13k41746
13k41746
I have a degree in computer science, so I certainly understand the convenience of counting from 0, but the traditional goal of foundational mathematics, since Euclid or earlier, has been to identify the most fundamental concepts from which all others may be derived, the appeal to computer science seem specious.
– Steven Hatton
2 days ago
@StevenHatton I see. However it is easy to prove that start from zero or one doesn't change the rules an consequences of Peano axioms, so, in this sense, some mathematicians prefer the use of zero. The unique real difference seems to be historic or pedagogical
– Masacroso
2 days ago
add a comment |
I have a degree in computer science, so I certainly understand the convenience of counting from 0, but the traditional goal of foundational mathematics, since Euclid or earlier, has been to identify the most fundamental concepts from which all others may be derived, the appeal to computer science seem specious.
– Steven Hatton
2 days ago
@StevenHatton I see. However it is easy to prove that start from zero or one doesn't change the rules an consequences of Peano axioms, so, in this sense, some mathematicians prefer the use of zero. The unique real difference seems to be historic or pedagogical
– Masacroso
2 days ago
I have a degree in computer science, so I certainly understand the convenience of counting from 0, but the traditional goal of foundational mathematics, since Euclid or earlier, has been to identify the most fundamental concepts from which all others may be derived, the appeal to computer science seem specious.
– Steven Hatton
2 days ago
I have a degree in computer science, so I certainly understand the convenience of counting from 0, but the traditional goal of foundational mathematics, since Euclid or earlier, has been to identify the most fundamental concepts from which all others may be derived, the appeal to computer science seem specious.
– Steven Hatton
2 days ago
@StevenHatton I see. However it is easy to prove that start from zero or one doesn't change the rules an consequences of Peano axioms, so, in this sense, some mathematicians prefer the use of zero. The unique real difference seems to be historic or pedagogical
– Masacroso
2 days ago
@StevenHatton I see. However it is easy to prove that start from zero or one doesn't change the rules an consequences of Peano axioms, so, in this sense, some mathematicians prefer the use of zero. The unique real difference seems to be historic or pedagogical
– Masacroso
2 days ago
add a comment |
Well, it doesn't really matter. A semigroup $S$ can always be extended to a monoid $Scup{e}$ by adjoining a unit element $e$.
Here the natural numbers without 0 form a semigroup with the operation of addition. Adjoining the zero turns the natural numbers with 0 into a (commutative) monoid.
This doesn’t really answer the question unless you elaborate
– Ant
2 days ago
I believe that is called circulus in probando.
– Steven Hatton
2 days ago
@Wuestenfux I really like your answer. Maybe you should include the statement that from an algebraic point of view there is not much difference as we have a way to pass to a monoid. Otherwise this might seem to be a bit unrelated to the question to other people.
– Severin Schraven
2 days ago
add a comment |
Well, it doesn't really matter. A semigroup $S$ can always be extended to a monoid $Scup{e}$ by adjoining a unit element $e$.
Here the natural numbers without 0 form a semigroup with the operation of addition. Adjoining the zero turns the natural numbers with 0 into a (commutative) monoid.
This doesn’t really answer the question unless you elaborate
– Ant
2 days ago
I believe that is called circulus in probando.
– Steven Hatton
2 days ago
@Wuestenfux I really like your answer. Maybe you should include the statement that from an algebraic point of view there is not much difference as we have a way to pass to a monoid. Otherwise this might seem to be a bit unrelated to the question to other people.
– Severin Schraven
2 days ago
add a comment |
Well, it doesn't really matter. A semigroup $S$ can always be extended to a monoid $Scup{e}$ by adjoining a unit element $e$.
Here the natural numbers without 0 form a semigroup with the operation of addition. Adjoining the zero turns the natural numbers with 0 into a (commutative) monoid.
Well, it doesn't really matter. A semigroup $S$ can always be extended to a monoid $Scup{e}$ by adjoining a unit element $e$.
Here the natural numbers without 0 form a semigroup with the operation of addition. Adjoining the zero turns the natural numbers with 0 into a (commutative) monoid.
edited 2 days ago
answered 2 days ago
WuestenfuxWuestenfux
3,7061411
3,7061411
This doesn’t really answer the question unless you elaborate
– Ant
2 days ago
I believe that is called circulus in probando.
– Steven Hatton
2 days ago
@Wuestenfux I really like your answer. Maybe you should include the statement that from an algebraic point of view there is not much difference as we have a way to pass to a monoid. Otherwise this might seem to be a bit unrelated to the question to other people.
– Severin Schraven
2 days ago
add a comment |
This doesn’t really answer the question unless you elaborate
– Ant
2 days ago
I believe that is called circulus in probando.
– Steven Hatton
2 days ago
@Wuestenfux I really like your answer. Maybe you should include the statement that from an algebraic point of view there is not much difference as we have a way to pass to a monoid. Otherwise this might seem to be a bit unrelated to the question to other people.
– Severin Schraven
2 days ago
This doesn’t really answer the question unless you elaborate
– Ant
2 days ago
This doesn’t really answer the question unless you elaborate
– Ant
2 days ago
I believe that is called circulus in probando.
– Steven Hatton
2 days ago
I believe that is called circulus in probando.
– Steven Hatton
2 days ago
@Wuestenfux I really like your answer. Maybe you should include the statement that from an algebraic point of view there is not much difference as we have a way to pass to a monoid. Otherwise this might seem to be a bit unrelated to the question to other people.
– Severin Schraven
2 days ago
@Wuestenfux I really like your answer. Maybe you should include the statement that from an algebraic point of view there is not much difference as we have a way to pass to a monoid. Otherwise this might seem to be a bit unrelated to the question to other people.
– Severin Schraven
2 days ago
add a comment |
1
zero is not "unnatural". If noone survives an airplane-crash, we can say , there were $0$ survivors. It is a matter of taste whether we should start with $1$ or with $0$. In fact, both philosophies are supported by many mathematicians.
– Peter
2 days ago
1
I think the same, historically it makes more sense to start from one, not from zero. However this is a matter of taste and, nowadays, it is common start with zero by many reasons, one of them is that it is important in informatics start the count on a list from zero instead of one. Other reason could be because it simplifies things a bit in the Peano arithmetic
– Masacroso
2 days ago
@Masacroso. I think that your comment is good enough to be an answer.
– md2perpe
2 days ago
1
See this post for different traditions regarding $mathbb N$ abd $0$.
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
2 days ago
What counts as numbers is the sucecssion starting from "somewhere" and going on indefinitely iterating the successor operation. Thus, there is no way to find any difference between the progression $0,1,2,ldots$ and the progression $1,2,3, ldots$.
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
2 days ago