FOL - If two models agree on every sentence are they isomorphic?












1












$begingroup$



Let $M,N$ be two models. If for every sentence $varphi$, $Mmodels varphi iff Nmodels varphi$ then they are isomorphic.




My intuition is that that the claim above is incorrect.



While the other way around (if $M,N$ are isomorphic then $varphi$ $Mmodels varphi iff Nmodels varphi$) is correct and can be proven with an easy induction, I am not sure how to disprove the statement above.



If we limit ourselves to first order logic without the equality sign, I believe the example of two finite models over $sigma = { R(cdot) }$ can be equivalent but not isomorphic, for example: $M = { {0},emptyset}, N={{0,1},emptyset}$ will satisfy such condition but are necessarily not isomorphic since they don't have the same cardinality. I believe that this can be shown by induction. Am I correct?



But, what about if we do work with logic with the equality sign?
We can't take two finite models with different cardinalities since they won't agree on the sentence "there exists exactly $n$ values in the domain" (with the appropriate $n$ value). That's why I thought about taking a signature $sigma = {R(cdot)}$ and giving one model $M$ a countable-infinite domain and the other $N$ a non-countable infinite domain, and making sure that the new added values to $N$'s domain are represented the same as already existing values in $M$'s domain. For example, the same as the above: $M = { D^M,emptyset}, N={D^N,emptyset}$. However, I wasn't able to prove it, since my induction either fails on the quantifiers ($forall, exists$) or the equality sign.



* just to make sure we are using the same meaning - an isomorphism between two models is a function one-to-one and onto between their domains, which preservers interpretation of functions and predicates.



Thanks!










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    You are right. Let $mathbb Q$ be the set of rational numbers and $mathbb R$ the set of real numbers, and let $<$ be the usual strict ordering of these sets. Since $mathbb Q$ is countable while $mathbb R$ is uncountable $(mathbb Q,< )$ is not isomorphic to $(mathbb R,<)$.
    $endgroup$
    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    Jan 16 at 16:10










  • $begingroup$
    But the two are elementarily equivalent.
    $endgroup$
    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    Jan 16 at 16:11










  • $begingroup$
    See also: this question and this question.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Kruckman
    Jan 16 at 18:50
















1












$begingroup$



Let $M,N$ be two models. If for every sentence $varphi$, $Mmodels varphi iff Nmodels varphi$ then they are isomorphic.




My intuition is that that the claim above is incorrect.



While the other way around (if $M,N$ are isomorphic then $varphi$ $Mmodels varphi iff Nmodels varphi$) is correct and can be proven with an easy induction, I am not sure how to disprove the statement above.



If we limit ourselves to first order logic without the equality sign, I believe the example of two finite models over $sigma = { R(cdot) }$ can be equivalent but not isomorphic, for example: $M = { {0},emptyset}, N={{0,1},emptyset}$ will satisfy such condition but are necessarily not isomorphic since they don't have the same cardinality. I believe that this can be shown by induction. Am I correct?



But, what about if we do work with logic with the equality sign?
We can't take two finite models with different cardinalities since they won't agree on the sentence "there exists exactly $n$ values in the domain" (with the appropriate $n$ value). That's why I thought about taking a signature $sigma = {R(cdot)}$ and giving one model $M$ a countable-infinite domain and the other $N$ a non-countable infinite domain, and making sure that the new added values to $N$'s domain are represented the same as already existing values in $M$'s domain. For example, the same as the above: $M = { D^M,emptyset}, N={D^N,emptyset}$. However, I wasn't able to prove it, since my induction either fails on the quantifiers ($forall, exists$) or the equality sign.



* just to make sure we are using the same meaning - an isomorphism between two models is a function one-to-one and onto between their domains, which preservers interpretation of functions and predicates.



Thanks!










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    You are right. Let $mathbb Q$ be the set of rational numbers and $mathbb R$ the set of real numbers, and let $<$ be the usual strict ordering of these sets. Since $mathbb Q$ is countable while $mathbb R$ is uncountable $(mathbb Q,< )$ is not isomorphic to $(mathbb R,<)$.
    $endgroup$
    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    Jan 16 at 16:10










  • $begingroup$
    But the two are elementarily equivalent.
    $endgroup$
    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    Jan 16 at 16:11










  • $begingroup$
    See also: this question and this question.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Kruckman
    Jan 16 at 18:50














1












1








1





$begingroup$



Let $M,N$ be two models. If for every sentence $varphi$, $Mmodels varphi iff Nmodels varphi$ then they are isomorphic.




My intuition is that that the claim above is incorrect.



While the other way around (if $M,N$ are isomorphic then $varphi$ $Mmodels varphi iff Nmodels varphi$) is correct and can be proven with an easy induction, I am not sure how to disprove the statement above.



If we limit ourselves to first order logic without the equality sign, I believe the example of two finite models over $sigma = { R(cdot) }$ can be equivalent but not isomorphic, for example: $M = { {0},emptyset}, N={{0,1},emptyset}$ will satisfy such condition but are necessarily not isomorphic since they don't have the same cardinality. I believe that this can be shown by induction. Am I correct?



But, what about if we do work with logic with the equality sign?
We can't take two finite models with different cardinalities since they won't agree on the sentence "there exists exactly $n$ values in the domain" (with the appropriate $n$ value). That's why I thought about taking a signature $sigma = {R(cdot)}$ and giving one model $M$ a countable-infinite domain and the other $N$ a non-countable infinite domain, and making sure that the new added values to $N$'s domain are represented the same as already existing values in $M$'s domain. For example, the same as the above: $M = { D^M,emptyset}, N={D^N,emptyset}$. However, I wasn't able to prove it, since my induction either fails on the quantifiers ($forall, exists$) or the equality sign.



* just to make sure we are using the same meaning - an isomorphism between two models is a function one-to-one and onto between their domains, which preservers interpretation of functions and predicates.



Thanks!










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$





Let $M,N$ be two models. If for every sentence $varphi$, $Mmodels varphi iff Nmodels varphi$ then they are isomorphic.




My intuition is that that the claim above is incorrect.



While the other way around (if $M,N$ are isomorphic then $varphi$ $Mmodels varphi iff Nmodels varphi$) is correct and can be proven with an easy induction, I am not sure how to disprove the statement above.



If we limit ourselves to first order logic without the equality sign, I believe the example of two finite models over $sigma = { R(cdot) }$ can be equivalent but not isomorphic, for example: $M = { {0},emptyset}, N={{0,1},emptyset}$ will satisfy such condition but are necessarily not isomorphic since they don't have the same cardinality. I believe that this can be shown by induction. Am I correct?



But, what about if we do work with logic with the equality sign?
We can't take two finite models with different cardinalities since they won't agree on the sentence "there exists exactly $n$ values in the domain" (with the appropriate $n$ value). That's why I thought about taking a signature $sigma = {R(cdot)}$ and giving one model $M$ a countable-infinite domain and the other $N$ a non-countable infinite domain, and making sure that the new added values to $N$'s domain are represented the same as already existing values in $M$'s domain. For example, the same as the above: $M = { D^M,emptyset}, N={D^N,emptyset}$. However, I wasn't able to prove it, since my induction either fails on the quantifiers ($forall, exists$) or the equality sign.



* just to make sure we are using the same meaning - an isomorphism between two models is a function one-to-one and onto between their domains, which preservers interpretation of functions and predicates.



Thanks!







logic first-order-logic satisfiability module-isomorphism






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asked Jan 16 at 15:57









MickeyMickey

689220




689220












  • $begingroup$
    You are right. Let $mathbb Q$ be the set of rational numbers and $mathbb R$ the set of real numbers, and let $<$ be the usual strict ordering of these sets. Since $mathbb Q$ is countable while $mathbb R$ is uncountable $(mathbb Q,< )$ is not isomorphic to $(mathbb R,<)$.
    $endgroup$
    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    Jan 16 at 16:10










  • $begingroup$
    But the two are elementarily equivalent.
    $endgroup$
    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    Jan 16 at 16:11










  • $begingroup$
    See also: this question and this question.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Kruckman
    Jan 16 at 18:50


















  • $begingroup$
    You are right. Let $mathbb Q$ be the set of rational numbers and $mathbb R$ the set of real numbers, and let $<$ be the usual strict ordering of these sets. Since $mathbb Q$ is countable while $mathbb R$ is uncountable $(mathbb Q,< )$ is not isomorphic to $(mathbb R,<)$.
    $endgroup$
    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    Jan 16 at 16:10










  • $begingroup$
    But the two are elementarily equivalent.
    $endgroup$
    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    Jan 16 at 16:11










  • $begingroup$
    See also: this question and this question.
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Kruckman
    Jan 16 at 18:50
















$begingroup$
You are right. Let $mathbb Q$ be the set of rational numbers and $mathbb R$ the set of real numbers, and let $<$ be the usual strict ordering of these sets. Since $mathbb Q$ is countable while $mathbb R$ is uncountable $(mathbb Q,< )$ is not isomorphic to $(mathbb R,<)$.
$endgroup$
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
Jan 16 at 16:10




$begingroup$
You are right. Let $mathbb Q$ be the set of rational numbers and $mathbb R$ the set of real numbers, and let $<$ be the usual strict ordering of these sets. Since $mathbb Q$ is countable while $mathbb R$ is uncountable $(mathbb Q,< )$ is not isomorphic to $(mathbb R,<)$.
$endgroup$
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
Jan 16 at 16:10












$begingroup$
But the two are elementarily equivalent.
$endgroup$
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
Jan 16 at 16:11




$begingroup$
But the two are elementarily equivalent.
$endgroup$
– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
Jan 16 at 16:11












$begingroup$
See also: this question and this question.
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
Jan 16 at 18:50




$begingroup$
See also: this question and this question.
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
Jan 16 at 18:50










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















3












$begingroup$

Your intuition is exactly right - elementary equivalence (= satisfy the same first-order sentences) is not the same as isomorphism. Moreover, you're right that the place to look is cardinality differences, since these provide the simplest evidence of non-isomorphism (although you don't quite go as far as you could - why not just look at the empty language ${}$, structures for which are just pure sets and thus are completely determined up to isomorphism by their cardinality?).



Now, how to prove that?



Below I'll first give four approaches which utilize "big theorems." Without more details I don't quite know why your induction argument breaks down, it really shouldn't, but if you say more about that I'll try to help out there too.





First, we can just use a counting argument. Note that given any language $Sigma$, there are proper class many nonisomorphic $Sigma$-structures. Namely, for each cardinality $kappa$ there are $Sigma$-structures of cardinality $kappa$. On the other hand, since our language must always be a set, there are only set-many complete $Sigma$-theories. Pigeonhole principle, class-vs.-set version: some nonisomorphic structures have the same theory.



Maybe more concretely, there are at most (for example) continuum-many complete theories in the empty language ${}$, but there are more-than-continuum-many non-isomorphic ${}$-structures (that is, non-equinumerous sets).



Here, the big theorem we're using is Cantor's theorem - more specifically, the corollary that there is no largest set (together with the fact that any set can be turned into a structure for any language, by interpreting the symbols in a silly way, but that's not really interesting).





Now that's a bit weird. Can we do something more natural?



The simplest reasonable proof is to use a theorem you may already know, namely the compactness theorem. For example, let $M$ be an infinite structure, and consider the following theory $T$:




  • The language of $T$ is the language of $M$, together with new constant symbols $d_i$ for $iin I$ where $I$ is an index set with $vert Ivert>vert Mvert$.


  • $T$ itself consists of $(i)$ the first-order theory of $M$ and $(ii)$ the sentence $d_inot=d_j$ whenever $inot=j$.



Since $M$ is infinite, $T$ is finitely satisfiable (why?) and hence has a model by compactness; this model (or rather its reduct to the original language of $M$) is elementarily equivalent to $M$ (by $(i)$) but not isomorphic to $M$ since it's too large (by $(ii)$).





Another powerful theorem you may already know is the downward Lowenheim-Skolem theorem. This also gives counterexamples: let $A$ be any uncountable structure (in a countable language) and apply downward Lowenheim-Skolem to argue that there is a countable (hence $notcong A$) structure $B$ which is elementarily equivalent to $A$.





Yet another useful theorem in this context is the game characterization of elementary equivalence due to Ehrenfeucht and Fraisse (if memory serves). It's relatively easy to cook up a winning strategy in the relevant games for, say, two pure sets of different infinite cardinalities. I also like these arguments since they give us a bit more insight into what makes the structures tick.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thanks! Great answer. I loved your proof using the compactness theorem. The counting argument is also very nice. As for the two other approaches - We have proved in class only a downgraded version of LS theorem (the one that only proves satisfiability) so it's nice to see that the complete theorem is much stronger. For the game characterization - we didn't study it but it looks nice, I'll look into it.
    $endgroup$
    – Mickey
    Jan 16 at 18:17



















1












$begingroup$

As a supplement to Noah's answer, the theory of dense linear orders without endpoints, has the models $mathbf{Q} = (Bbb{Q}, le)$ and $mathbf{R} = (Bbb{R}, le)$ that are not isomorphic but are elementarily equivalent, as we can see by considering the standard quantifier-elimination process for the theory. The quantifier-elimination argument is (in my opinion) much simpler to understand than the "big theorems" that Noah mentions.



Also, if you don't treat equality as a logical symbol, then there is indeed an inductive argment of the sort are you looking for in your example of non-isomorphic but elementarily equivalent theories $M = ({0}, emptyset)$ and $N = ({0, 1}, emptyset)$ over the signature with a single monadic relational symbol $R(cdot)$. This argument is a very simple quantifier-elimination argument: you can simply strike out all the quantifiers, since the value of $R(x)$ is independent of $x$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    I'm not sure quantifier elimination is easier to understand than Cantor's theorem, but definitely +1.
    $endgroup$
    – Noah Schweber
    Jan 21 at 2:25











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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









3












$begingroup$

Your intuition is exactly right - elementary equivalence (= satisfy the same first-order sentences) is not the same as isomorphism. Moreover, you're right that the place to look is cardinality differences, since these provide the simplest evidence of non-isomorphism (although you don't quite go as far as you could - why not just look at the empty language ${}$, structures for which are just pure sets and thus are completely determined up to isomorphism by their cardinality?).



Now, how to prove that?



Below I'll first give four approaches which utilize "big theorems." Without more details I don't quite know why your induction argument breaks down, it really shouldn't, but if you say more about that I'll try to help out there too.





First, we can just use a counting argument. Note that given any language $Sigma$, there are proper class many nonisomorphic $Sigma$-structures. Namely, for each cardinality $kappa$ there are $Sigma$-structures of cardinality $kappa$. On the other hand, since our language must always be a set, there are only set-many complete $Sigma$-theories. Pigeonhole principle, class-vs.-set version: some nonisomorphic structures have the same theory.



Maybe more concretely, there are at most (for example) continuum-many complete theories in the empty language ${}$, but there are more-than-continuum-many non-isomorphic ${}$-structures (that is, non-equinumerous sets).



Here, the big theorem we're using is Cantor's theorem - more specifically, the corollary that there is no largest set (together with the fact that any set can be turned into a structure for any language, by interpreting the symbols in a silly way, but that's not really interesting).





Now that's a bit weird. Can we do something more natural?



The simplest reasonable proof is to use a theorem you may already know, namely the compactness theorem. For example, let $M$ be an infinite structure, and consider the following theory $T$:




  • The language of $T$ is the language of $M$, together with new constant symbols $d_i$ for $iin I$ where $I$ is an index set with $vert Ivert>vert Mvert$.


  • $T$ itself consists of $(i)$ the first-order theory of $M$ and $(ii)$ the sentence $d_inot=d_j$ whenever $inot=j$.



Since $M$ is infinite, $T$ is finitely satisfiable (why?) and hence has a model by compactness; this model (or rather its reduct to the original language of $M$) is elementarily equivalent to $M$ (by $(i)$) but not isomorphic to $M$ since it's too large (by $(ii)$).





Another powerful theorem you may already know is the downward Lowenheim-Skolem theorem. This also gives counterexamples: let $A$ be any uncountable structure (in a countable language) and apply downward Lowenheim-Skolem to argue that there is a countable (hence $notcong A$) structure $B$ which is elementarily equivalent to $A$.





Yet another useful theorem in this context is the game characterization of elementary equivalence due to Ehrenfeucht and Fraisse (if memory serves). It's relatively easy to cook up a winning strategy in the relevant games for, say, two pure sets of different infinite cardinalities. I also like these arguments since they give us a bit more insight into what makes the structures tick.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thanks! Great answer. I loved your proof using the compactness theorem. The counting argument is also very nice. As for the two other approaches - We have proved in class only a downgraded version of LS theorem (the one that only proves satisfiability) so it's nice to see that the complete theorem is much stronger. For the game characterization - we didn't study it but it looks nice, I'll look into it.
    $endgroup$
    – Mickey
    Jan 16 at 18:17
















3












$begingroup$

Your intuition is exactly right - elementary equivalence (= satisfy the same first-order sentences) is not the same as isomorphism. Moreover, you're right that the place to look is cardinality differences, since these provide the simplest evidence of non-isomorphism (although you don't quite go as far as you could - why not just look at the empty language ${}$, structures for which are just pure sets and thus are completely determined up to isomorphism by their cardinality?).



Now, how to prove that?



Below I'll first give four approaches which utilize "big theorems." Without more details I don't quite know why your induction argument breaks down, it really shouldn't, but if you say more about that I'll try to help out there too.





First, we can just use a counting argument. Note that given any language $Sigma$, there are proper class many nonisomorphic $Sigma$-structures. Namely, for each cardinality $kappa$ there are $Sigma$-structures of cardinality $kappa$. On the other hand, since our language must always be a set, there are only set-many complete $Sigma$-theories. Pigeonhole principle, class-vs.-set version: some nonisomorphic structures have the same theory.



Maybe more concretely, there are at most (for example) continuum-many complete theories in the empty language ${}$, but there are more-than-continuum-many non-isomorphic ${}$-structures (that is, non-equinumerous sets).



Here, the big theorem we're using is Cantor's theorem - more specifically, the corollary that there is no largest set (together with the fact that any set can be turned into a structure for any language, by interpreting the symbols in a silly way, but that's not really interesting).





Now that's a bit weird. Can we do something more natural?



The simplest reasonable proof is to use a theorem you may already know, namely the compactness theorem. For example, let $M$ be an infinite structure, and consider the following theory $T$:




  • The language of $T$ is the language of $M$, together with new constant symbols $d_i$ for $iin I$ where $I$ is an index set with $vert Ivert>vert Mvert$.


  • $T$ itself consists of $(i)$ the first-order theory of $M$ and $(ii)$ the sentence $d_inot=d_j$ whenever $inot=j$.



Since $M$ is infinite, $T$ is finitely satisfiable (why?) and hence has a model by compactness; this model (or rather its reduct to the original language of $M$) is elementarily equivalent to $M$ (by $(i)$) but not isomorphic to $M$ since it's too large (by $(ii)$).





Another powerful theorem you may already know is the downward Lowenheim-Skolem theorem. This also gives counterexamples: let $A$ be any uncountable structure (in a countable language) and apply downward Lowenheim-Skolem to argue that there is a countable (hence $notcong A$) structure $B$ which is elementarily equivalent to $A$.





Yet another useful theorem in this context is the game characterization of elementary equivalence due to Ehrenfeucht and Fraisse (if memory serves). It's relatively easy to cook up a winning strategy in the relevant games for, say, two pure sets of different infinite cardinalities. I also like these arguments since they give us a bit more insight into what makes the structures tick.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thanks! Great answer. I loved your proof using the compactness theorem. The counting argument is also very nice. As for the two other approaches - We have proved in class only a downgraded version of LS theorem (the one that only proves satisfiability) so it's nice to see that the complete theorem is much stronger. For the game characterization - we didn't study it but it looks nice, I'll look into it.
    $endgroup$
    – Mickey
    Jan 16 at 18:17














3












3








3





$begingroup$

Your intuition is exactly right - elementary equivalence (= satisfy the same first-order sentences) is not the same as isomorphism. Moreover, you're right that the place to look is cardinality differences, since these provide the simplest evidence of non-isomorphism (although you don't quite go as far as you could - why not just look at the empty language ${}$, structures for which are just pure sets and thus are completely determined up to isomorphism by their cardinality?).



Now, how to prove that?



Below I'll first give four approaches which utilize "big theorems." Without more details I don't quite know why your induction argument breaks down, it really shouldn't, but if you say more about that I'll try to help out there too.





First, we can just use a counting argument. Note that given any language $Sigma$, there are proper class many nonisomorphic $Sigma$-structures. Namely, for each cardinality $kappa$ there are $Sigma$-structures of cardinality $kappa$. On the other hand, since our language must always be a set, there are only set-many complete $Sigma$-theories. Pigeonhole principle, class-vs.-set version: some nonisomorphic structures have the same theory.



Maybe more concretely, there are at most (for example) continuum-many complete theories in the empty language ${}$, but there are more-than-continuum-many non-isomorphic ${}$-structures (that is, non-equinumerous sets).



Here, the big theorem we're using is Cantor's theorem - more specifically, the corollary that there is no largest set (together with the fact that any set can be turned into a structure for any language, by interpreting the symbols in a silly way, but that's not really interesting).





Now that's a bit weird. Can we do something more natural?



The simplest reasonable proof is to use a theorem you may already know, namely the compactness theorem. For example, let $M$ be an infinite structure, and consider the following theory $T$:




  • The language of $T$ is the language of $M$, together with new constant symbols $d_i$ for $iin I$ where $I$ is an index set with $vert Ivert>vert Mvert$.


  • $T$ itself consists of $(i)$ the first-order theory of $M$ and $(ii)$ the sentence $d_inot=d_j$ whenever $inot=j$.



Since $M$ is infinite, $T$ is finitely satisfiable (why?) and hence has a model by compactness; this model (or rather its reduct to the original language of $M$) is elementarily equivalent to $M$ (by $(i)$) but not isomorphic to $M$ since it's too large (by $(ii)$).





Another powerful theorem you may already know is the downward Lowenheim-Skolem theorem. This also gives counterexamples: let $A$ be any uncountable structure (in a countable language) and apply downward Lowenheim-Skolem to argue that there is a countable (hence $notcong A$) structure $B$ which is elementarily equivalent to $A$.





Yet another useful theorem in this context is the game characterization of elementary equivalence due to Ehrenfeucht and Fraisse (if memory serves). It's relatively easy to cook up a winning strategy in the relevant games for, say, two pure sets of different infinite cardinalities. I also like these arguments since they give us a bit more insight into what makes the structures tick.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



Your intuition is exactly right - elementary equivalence (= satisfy the same first-order sentences) is not the same as isomorphism. Moreover, you're right that the place to look is cardinality differences, since these provide the simplest evidence of non-isomorphism (although you don't quite go as far as you could - why not just look at the empty language ${}$, structures for which are just pure sets and thus are completely determined up to isomorphism by their cardinality?).



Now, how to prove that?



Below I'll first give four approaches which utilize "big theorems." Without more details I don't quite know why your induction argument breaks down, it really shouldn't, but if you say more about that I'll try to help out there too.





First, we can just use a counting argument. Note that given any language $Sigma$, there are proper class many nonisomorphic $Sigma$-structures. Namely, for each cardinality $kappa$ there are $Sigma$-structures of cardinality $kappa$. On the other hand, since our language must always be a set, there are only set-many complete $Sigma$-theories. Pigeonhole principle, class-vs.-set version: some nonisomorphic structures have the same theory.



Maybe more concretely, there are at most (for example) continuum-many complete theories in the empty language ${}$, but there are more-than-continuum-many non-isomorphic ${}$-structures (that is, non-equinumerous sets).



Here, the big theorem we're using is Cantor's theorem - more specifically, the corollary that there is no largest set (together with the fact that any set can be turned into a structure for any language, by interpreting the symbols in a silly way, but that's not really interesting).





Now that's a bit weird. Can we do something more natural?



The simplest reasonable proof is to use a theorem you may already know, namely the compactness theorem. For example, let $M$ be an infinite structure, and consider the following theory $T$:




  • The language of $T$ is the language of $M$, together with new constant symbols $d_i$ for $iin I$ where $I$ is an index set with $vert Ivert>vert Mvert$.


  • $T$ itself consists of $(i)$ the first-order theory of $M$ and $(ii)$ the sentence $d_inot=d_j$ whenever $inot=j$.



Since $M$ is infinite, $T$ is finitely satisfiable (why?) and hence has a model by compactness; this model (or rather its reduct to the original language of $M$) is elementarily equivalent to $M$ (by $(i)$) but not isomorphic to $M$ since it's too large (by $(ii)$).





Another powerful theorem you may already know is the downward Lowenheim-Skolem theorem. This also gives counterexamples: let $A$ be any uncountable structure (in a countable language) and apply downward Lowenheim-Skolem to argue that there is a countable (hence $notcong A$) structure $B$ which is elementarily equivalent to $A$.





Yet another useful theorem in this context is the game characterization of elementary equivalence due to Ehrenfeucht and Fraisse (if memory serves). It's relatively easy to cook up a winning strategy in the relevant games for, say, two pure sets of different infinite cardinalities. I also like these arguments since they give us a bit more insight into what makes the structures tick.







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share|cite|improve this answer








edited Jan 16 at 16:28

























answered Jan 16 at 16:14









Noah SchweberNoah Schweber

124k10150287




124k10150287












  • $begingroup$
    Thanks! Great answer. I loved your proof using the compactness theorem. The counting argument is also very nice. As for the two other approaches - We have proved in class only a downgraded version of LS theorem (the one that only proves satisfiability) so it's nice to see that the complete theorem is much stronger. For the game characterization - we didn't study it but it looks nice, I'll look into it.
    $endgroup$
    – Mickey
    Jan 16 at 18:17


















  • $begingroup$
    Thanks! Great answer. I loved your proof using the compactness theorem. The counting argument is also very nice. As for the two other approaches - We have proved in class only a downgraded version of LS theorem (the one that only proves satisfiability) so it's nice to see that the complete theorem is much stronger. For the game characterization - we didn't study it but it looks nice, I'll look into it.
    $endgroup$
    – Mickey
    Jan 16 at 18:17
















$begingroup$
Thanks! Great answer. I loved your proof using the compactness theorem. The counting argument is also very nice. As for the two other approaches - We have proved in class only a downgraded version of LS theorem (the one that only proves satisfiability) so it's nice to see that the complete theorem is much stronger. For the game characterization - we didn't study it but it looks nice, I'll look into it.
$endgroup$
– Mickey
Jan 16 at 18:17




$begingroup$
Thanks! Great answer. I loved your proof using the compactness theorem. The counting argument is also very nice. As for the two other approaches - We have proved in class only a downgraded version of LS theorem (the one that only proves satisfiability) so it's nice to see that the complete theorem is much stronger. For the game characterization - we didn't study it but it looks nice, I'll look into it.
$endgroup$
– Mickey
Jan 16 at 18:17











1












$begingroup$

As a supplement to Noah's answer, the theory of dense linear orders without endpoints, has the models $mathbf{Q} = (Bbb{Q}, le)$ and $mathbf{R} = (Bbb{R}, le)$ that are not isomorphic but are elementarily equivalent, as we can see by considering the standard quantifier-elimination process for the theory. The quantifier-elimination argument is (in my opinion) much simpler to understand than the "big theorems" that Noah mentions.



Also, if you don't treat equality as a logical symbol, then there is indeed an inductive argment of the sort are you looking for in your example of non-isomorphic but elementarily equivalent theories $M = ({0}, emptyset)$ and $N = ({0, 1}, emptyset)$ over the signature with a single monadic relational symbol $R(cdot)$. This argument is a very simple quantifier-elimination argument: you can simply strike out all the quantifiers, since the value of $R(x)$ is independent of $x$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    I'm not sure quantifier elimination is easier to understand than Cantor's theorem, but definitely +1.
    $endgroup$
    – Noah Schweber
    Jan 21 at 2:25
















1












$begingroup$

As a supplement to Noah's answer, the theory of dense linear orders without endpoints, has the models $mathbf{Q} = (Bbb{Q}, le)$ and $mathbf{R} = (Bbb{R}, le)$ that are not isomorphic but are elementarily equivalent, as we can see by considering the standard quantifier-elimination process for the theory. The quantifier-elimination argument is (in my opinion) much simpler to understand than the "big theorems" that Noah mentions.



Also, if you don't treat equality as a logical symbol, then there is indeed an inductive argment of the sort are you looking for in your example of non-isomorphic but elementarily equivalent theories $M = ({0}, emptyset)$ and $N = ({0, 1}, emptyset)$ over the signature with a single monadic relational symbol $R(cdot)$. This argument is a very simple quantifier-elimination argument: you can simply strike out all the quantifiers, since the value of $R(x)$ is independent of $x$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    I'm not sure quantifier elimination is easier to understand than Cantor's theorem, but definitely +1.
    $endgroup$
    – Noah Schweber
    Jan 21 at 2:25














1












1








1





$begingroup$

As a supplement to Noah's answer, the theory of dense linear orders without endpoints, has the models $mathbf{Q} = (Bbb{Q}, le)$ and $mathbf{R} = (Bbb{R}, le)$ that are not isomorphic but are elementarily equivalent, as we can see by considering the standard quantifier-elimination process for the theory. The quantifier-elimination argument is (in my opinion) much simpler to understand than the "big theorems" that Noah mentions.



Also, if you don't treat equality as a logical symbol, then there is indeed an inductive argment of the sort are you looking for in your example of non-isomorphic but elementarily equivalent theories $M = ({0}, emptyset)$ and $N = ({0, 1}, emptyset)$ over the signature with a single monadic relational symbol $R(cdot)$. This argument is a very simple quantifier-elimination argument: you can simply strike out all the quantifiers, since the value of $R(x)$ is independent of $x$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



As a supplement to Noah's answer, the theory of dense linear orders without endpoints, has the models $mathbf{Q} = (Bbb{Q}, le)$ and $mathbf{R} = (Bbb{R}, le)$ that are not isomorphic but are elementarily equivalent, as we can see by considering the standard quantifier-elimination process for the theory. The quantifier-elimination argument is (in my opinion) much simpler to understand than the "big theorems" that Noah mentions.



Also, if you don't treat equality as a logical symbol, then there is indeed an inductive argment of the sort are you looking for in your example of non-isomorphic but elementarily equivalent theories $M = ({0}, emptyset)$ and $N = ({0, 1}, emptyset)$ over the signature with a single monadic relational symbol $R(cdot)$. This argument is a very simple quantifier-elimination argument: you can simply strike out all the quantifiers, since the value of $R(x)$ is independent of $x$.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Jan 16 at 22:09

























answered Jan 16 at 21:50









Rob ArthanRob Arthan

29.3k42966




29.3k42966












  • $begingroup$
    I'm not sure quantifier elimination is easier to understand than Cantor's theorem, but definitely +1.
    $endgroup$
    – Noah Schweber
    Jan 21 at 2:25


















  • $begingroup$
    I'm not sure quantifier elimination is easier to understand than Cantor's theorem, but definitely +1.
    $endgroup$
    – Noah Schweber
    Jan 21 at 2:25
















$begingroup$
I'm not sure quantifier elimination is easier to understand than Cantor's theorem, but definitely +1.
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
Jan 21 at 2:25




$begingroup$
I'm not sure quantifier elimination is easier to understand than Cantor's theorem, but definitely +1.
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
Jan 21 at 2:25


















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