Shw that $ (1+X)^a in mathbb{Q}$ both in $mathbb{R}$ and $ mathbb{Q}_p$ under some condition
$underline{text{p-adic numbers and p-adic power series}}:$
If $ a,X in mathbb{Q}$, then when the binomial expression $f(X)=(1+X)^a in mathbb{Q} $ both in p-adic field $mathbb{Q}_p$ and real field $mathbb{R}$ ?
Answer:
For example let $X=frac{7}{9}$ and $a=frac{1}{2}$, we see $f(frac{7}{9})=(1+frac{7}{9})^{frac{1}{2}}=left(frac{16}{9} right)^{frac{1}{2}}=pm frac{4}{3}$ and fix the prime $p=7$. Thus in $mathbb{Q}_7$ as well as in $mathbb{R}$, the number $frac{16}{9}$ has square $ pm frac{4}{3}$. But in $ mathbb{Q}_7$, the square root $ pm frac{4}{3} equiv 1 (mod 7)$.
Thus in $mathbb{R}$ the value of $f(frac{7}{9})= frac{4}{3} in mathbb{Q} $ and in $ mathbb{Q}_7$ the value of $f(frac{7}{9})=1 (mod 7) in mathbb{Q}$.
Thus in this case $f(X)=(1+X)^a$ gives rational value both in $mathbb{R}$ and $ mathbb{Q}_p$, for prime $p$.
This was particular case.
Can someone help me with the general case so that $ (1+X)^a in mathbb{Q}$ both in $mathbb{R}$ and $ mathbb{Q}_p$?
power-series p-adic-number-theory
add a comment |
$underline{text{p-adic numbers and p-adic power series}}:$
If $ a,X in mathbb{Q}$, then when the binomial expression $f(X)=(1+X)^a in mathbb{Q} $ both in p-adic field $mathbb{Q}_p$ and real field $mathbb{R}$ ?
Answer:
For example let $X=frac{7}{9}$ and $a=frac{1}{2}$, we see $f(frac{7}{9})=(1+frac{7}{9})^{frac{1}{2}}=left(frac{16}{9} right)^{frac{1}{2}}=pm frac{4}{3}$ and fix the prime $p=7$. Thus in $mathbb{Q}_7$ as well as in $mathbb{R}$, the number $frac{16}{9}$ has square $ pm frac{4}{3}$. But in $ mathbb{Q}_7$, the square root $ pm frac{4}{3} equiv 1 (mod 7)$.
Thus in $mathbb{R}$ the value of $f(frac{7}{9})= frac{4}{3} in mathbb{Q} $ and in $ mathbb{Q}_7$ the value of $f(frac{7}{9})=1 (mod 7) in mathbb{Q}$.
Thus in this case $f(X)=(1+X)^a$ gives rational value both in $mathbb{R}$ and $ mathbb{Q}_p$, for prime $p$.
This was particular case.
Can someone help me with the general case so that $ (1+X)^a in mathbb{Q}$ both in $mathbb{R}$ and $ mathbb{Q}_p$?
power-series p-adic-number-theory
1
Some of what you write is unclear. Your example is actually a standard example where the series does converge both $p$-adically and w.r.t. the real metric, and in both cases to rational numbers, but to different ones: Namely, the "real" $f(X) = 4/3$, but the "$7$-adic" $f(X)= -4/3$. I am quite sure I have seen that exact example here, right now I found this essentially same one: math.stackexchange.com/a/2300197/96384
– Torsten Schoeneberg
yesterday
1
But maybe you are just asking for criteria on $X,a,p$ such that both the "really" and the "$p$-adically" evaluated $f(X)$ are $in Bbb Q$ (and not necessarily identical)? Well, it seems to me that then you need two criteria coming from the respective convergence inequalities, and one number theoretic one about rationality of a root.
– Torsten Schoeneberg
yesterday
(The last i.e. rationality criterion having just been given here: math.stackexchange.com/q/3059365/96384. By the way, I imply from your commenting on math.stackexchange.com/q/3054781/96384 that you are identical to the account "arifamath" who asked that question. I wonder how appropriate it is to have such double accounts.)
– Torsten Schoeneberg
yesterday
@TorstenSchoeneberg, oh no. Actually we are a group of research scholars here in our University. That account belong to one of my friend. Since one account is limited to ask several questions, we sometimes ask questions from others accounts as we are group of scholars with same topic.
– M. A. SARKAR
yesterday
@TorstenSchoeneberg, your second comment is applicable for my question. I need to find criteria on $X,a,p$ such that $f(X) in mathbb{Q}$ . I do not need the value $f(X)$ identical both in really or p-adically.. By the way , Can the value of $f(X)$ be identical both in real norm as well p-adic norm? Any hintz please
– M. A. SARKAR
yesterday
add a comment |
$underline{text{p-adic numbers and p-adic power series}}:$
If $ a,X in mathbb{Q}$, then when the binomial expression $f(X)=(1+X)^a in mathbb{Q} $ both in p-adic field $mathbb{Q}_p$ and real field $mathbb{R}$ ?
Answer:
For example let $X=frac{7}{9}$ and $a=frac{1}{2}$, we see $f(frac{7}{9})=(1+frac{7}{9})^{frac{1}{2}}=left(frac{16}{9} right)^{frac{1}{2}}=pm frac{4}{3}$ and fix the prime $p=7$. Thus in $mathbb{Q}_7$ as well as in $mathbb{R}$, the number $frac{16}{9}$ has square $ pm frac{4}{3}$. But in $ mathbb{Q}_7$, the square root $ pm frac{4}{3} equiv 1 (mod 7)$.
Thus in $mathbb{R}$ the value of $f(frac{7}{9})= frac{4}{3} in mathbb{Q} $ and in $ mathbb{Q}_7$ the value of $f(frac{7}{9})=1 (mod 7) in mathbb{Q}$.
Thus in this case $f(X)=(1+X)^a$ gives rational value both in $mathbb{R}$ and $ mathbb{Q}_p$, for prime $p$.
This was particular case.
Can someone help me with the general case so that $ (1+X)^a in mathbb{Q}$ both in $mathbb{R}$ and $ mathbb{Q}_p$?
power-series p-adic-number-theory
$underline{text{p-adic numbers and p-adic power series}}:$
If $ a,X in mathbb{Q}$, then when the binomial expression $f(X)=(1+X)^a in mathbb{Q} $ both in p-adic field $mathbb{Q}_p$ and real field $mathbb{R}$ ?
Answer:
For example let $X=frac{7}{9}$ and $a=frac{1}{2}$, we see $f(frac{7}{9})=(1+frac{7}{9})^{frac{1}{2}}=left(frac{16}{9} right)^{frac{1}{2}}=pm frac{4}{3}$ and fix the prime $p=7$. Thus in $mathbb{Q}_7$ as well as in $mathbb{R}$, the number $frac{16}{9}$ has square $ pm frac{4}{3}$. But in $ mathbb{Q}_7$, the square root $ pm frac{4}{3} equiv 1 (mod 7)$.
Thus in $mathbb{R}$ the value of $f(frac{7}{9})= frac{4}{3} in mathbb{Q} $ and in $ mathbb{Q}_7$ the value of $f(frac{7}{9})=1 (mod 7) in mathbb{Q}$.
Thus in this case $f(X)=(1+X)^a$ gives rational value both in $mathbb{R}$ and $ mathbb{Q}_p$, for prime $p$.
This was particular case.
Can someone help me with the general case so that $ (1+X)^a in mathbb{Q}$ both in $mathbb{R}$ and $ mathbb{Q}_p$?
power-series p-adic-number-theory
power-series p-adic-number-theory
edited 2 days ago
asked 2 days ago
M. A. SARKAR
2,1901619
2,1901619
1
Some of what you write is unclear. Your example is actually a standard example where the series does converge both $p$-adically and w.r.t. the real metric, and in both cases to rational numbers, but to different ones: Namely, the "real" $f(X) = 4/3$, but the "$7$-adic" $f(X)= -4/3$. I am quite sure I have seen that exact example here, right now I found this essentially same one: math.stackexchange.com/a/2300197/96384
– Torsten Schoeneberg
yesterday
1
But maybe you are just asking for criteria on $X,a,p$ such that both the "really" and the "$p$-adically" evaluated $f(X)$ are $in Bbb Q$ (and not necessarily identical)? Well, it seems to me that then you need two criteria coming from the respective convergence inequalities, and one number theoretic one about rationality of a root.
– Torsten Schoeneberg
yesterday
(The last i.e. rationality criterion having just been given here: math.stackexchange.com/q/3059365/96384. By the way, I imply from your commenting on math.stackexchange.com/q/3054781/96384 that you are identical to the account "arifamath" who asked that question. I wonder how appropriate it is to have such double accounts.)
– Torsten Schoeneberg
yesterday
@TorstenSchoeneberg, oh no. Actually we are a group of research scholars here in our University. That account belong to one of my friend. Since one account is limited to ask several questions, we sometimes ask questions from others accounts as we are group of scholars with same topic.
– M. A. SARKAR
yesterday
@TorstenSchoeneberg, your second comment is applicable for my question. I need to find criteria on $X,a,p$ such that $f(X) in mathbb{Q}$ . I do not need the value $f(X)$ identical both in really or p-adically.. By the way , Can the value of $f(X)$ be identical both in real norm as well p-adic norm? Any hintz please
– M. A. SARKAR
yesterday
add a comment |
1
Some of what you write is unclear. Your example is actually a standard example where the series does converge both $p$-adically and w.r.t. the real metric, and in both cases to rational numbers, but to different ones: Namely, the "real" $f(X) = 4/3$, but the "$7$-adic" $f(X)= -4/3$. I am quite sure I have seen that exact example here, right now I found this essentially same one: math.stackexchange.com/a/2300197/96384
– Torsten Schoeneberg
yesterday
1
But maybe you are just asking for criteria on $X,a,p$ such that both the "really" and the "$p$-adically" evaluated $f(X)$ are $in Bbb Q$ (and not necessarily identical)? Well, it seems to me that then you need two criteria coming from the respective convergence inequalities, and one number theoretic one about rationality of a root.
– Torsten Schoeneberg
yesterday
(The last i.e. rationality criterion having just been given here: math.stackexchange.com/q/3059365/96384. By the way, I imply from your commenting on math.stackexchange.com/q/3054781/96384 that you are identical to the account "arifamath" who asked that question. I wonder how appropriate it is to have such double accounts.)
– Torsten Schoeneberg
yesterday
@TorstenSchoeneberg, oh no. Actually we are a group of research scholars here in our University. That account belong to one of my friend. Since one account is limited to ask several questions, we sometimes ask questions from others accounts as we are group of scholars with same topic.
– M. A. SARKAR
yesterday
@TorstenSchoeneberg, your second comment is applicable for my question. I need to find criteria on $X,a,p$ such that $f(X) in mathbb{Q}$ . I do not need the value $f(X)$ identical both in really or p-adically.. By the way , Can the value of $f(X)$ be identical both in real norm as well p-adic norm? Any hintz please
– M. A. SARKAR
yesterday
1
1
Some of what you write is unclear. Your example is actually a standard example where the series does converge both $p$-adically and w.r.t. the real metric, and in both cases to rational numbers, but to different ones: Namely, the "real" $f(X) = 4/3$, but the "$7$-adic" $f(X)= -4/3$. I am quite sure I have seen that exact example here, right now I found this essentially same one: math.stackexchange.com/a/2300197/96384
– Torsten Schoeneberg
yesterday
Some of what you write is unclear. Your example is actually a standard example where the series does converge both $p$-adically and w.r.t. the real metric, and in both cases to rational numbers, but to different ones: Namely, the "real" $f(X) = 4/3$, but the "$7$-adic" $f(X)= -4/3$. I am quite sure I have seen that exact example here, right now I found this essentially same one: math.stackexchange.com/a/2300197/96384
– Torsten Schoeneberg
yesterday
1
1
But maybe you are just asking for criteria on $X,a,p$ such that both the "really" and the "$p$-adically" evaluated $f(X)$ are $in Bbb Q$ (and not necessarily identical)? Well, it seems to me that then you need two criteria coming from the respective convergence inequalities, and one number theoretic one about rationality of a root.
– Torsten Schoeneberg
yesterday
But maybe you are just asking for criteria on $X,a,p$ such that both the "really" and the "$p$-adically" evaluated $f(X)$ are $in Bbb Q$ (and not necessarily identical)? Well, it seems to me that then you need two criteria coming from the respective convergence inequalities, and one number theoretic one about rationality of a root.
– Torsten Schoeneberg
yesterday
(The last i.e. rationality criterion having just been given here: math.stackexchange.com/q/3059365/96384. By the way, I imply from your commenting on math.stackexchange.com/q/3054781/96384 that you are identical to the account "arifamath" who asked that question. I wonder how appropriate it is to have such double accounts.)
– Torsten Schoeneberg
yesterday
(The last i.e. rationality criterion having just been given here: math.stackexchange.com/q/3059365/96384. By the way, I imply from your commenting on math.stackexchange.com/q/3054781/96384 that you are identical to the account "arifamath" who asked that question. I wonder how appropriate it is to have such double accounts.)
– Torsten Schoeneberg
yesterday
@TorstenSchoeneberg, oh no. Actually we are a group of research scholars here in our University. That account belong to one of my friend. Since one account is limited to ask several questions, we sometimes ask questions from others accounts as we are group of scholars with same topic.
– M. A. SARKAR
yesterday
@TorstenSchoeneberg, oh no. Actually we are a group of research scholars here in our University. That account belong to one of my friend. Since one account is limited to ask several questions, we sometimes ask questions from others accounts as we are group of scholars with same topic.
– M. A. SARKAR
yesterday
@TorstenSchoeneberg, your second comment is applicable for my question. I need to find criteria on $X,a,p$ such that $f(X) in mathbb{Q}$ . I do not need the value $f(X)$ identical both in really or p-adically.. By the way , Can the value of $f(X)$ be identical both in real norm as well p-adic norm? Any hintz please
– M. A. SARKAR
yesterday
@TorstenSchoeneberg, your second comment is applicable for my question. I need to find criteria on $X,a,p$ such that $f(X) in mathbb{Q}$ . I do not need the value $f(X)$ identical both in really or p-adically.. By the way , Can the value of $f(X)$ be identical both in real norm as well p-adic norm? Any hintz please
– M. A. SARKAR
yesterday
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
Not a complete answer, just a collection of hints and remarks.
The series is
$$displaystyle (1+X)^a = sum_{k=0}^infty binom{a}{k}X^k .$$
Real convergence: If $ain Bbb N$, the binomial coefficents become eventually $0$ and this is just a finite sum. If $anotin Bbb N$, one has to use estimates of the usual absolute value of the binomial coefficients. I know next to nothing about this and just googled a bit. According to http://emis.math.tifr.res.in/journals/JIPAM/images/061_06_JIPAM/061_06.pdf, as soon as $a>-1$, certainly $vert Xvert < 1$ is sufficient (and I have the feeling that this bound is reasonable, if not necessary, in general).
Real rationality: Answered in Wojowu's comment on How to find all $x in mathbb{Q}$ and $r in mathbb{Q}$ such that $(1+x)^r$ becomes a rational number?.
$p$-adic convergence: Again if $ain Bbb N$, the binomial coefficents become eventually $0$ and this is just a finite sum. For general $anotin Bbb N$, now one needs estimates for the $p$-adic absolute value of the binomial coefficients. A good thing is that because we are in an ultrametric, we only need to check whether
$$lim_{kto infty}vert binom{a}{k}X^kvert_p = lim_{kto infty}vert binom{a}{k} vert_p cdot vert Xvert_p^k stackrel{?}=0.$$
Again I have to leave this open in general; in analogy to the real case however, one definitely has (cf. http://www.math.uconn.edu/~kconrad/blurbs/gradnumthy/binomialcoeffpadic.pdf, Definition of $p$-adic $(1+x)^alpha$ via binomial series and log/exp): If $vert avert_p le 1$, then all $vert binom{a}{k}vert_p le 1$, meaning that the series certainly converges for those $X$ with $vert Xvert_p < 1$.
$p$-adic rationality: Here is a subtlety. E.g. look at
$$displaystyle (1+(-frac78))^frac13 = sum_{k=0}^infty binom{1/3}{k}(-7/8)^k .$$
In $Bbb R$, the series converges to $1/2$, which is indeed a cube root (more precisely: the unique positive real cube root) of $1/8$. The series also does converge in $Bbb Q_7$, and also to a (!) cube root of $1/8$, but not to $1/2 in Bbb Q$, rather to the unique one which is $equiv 1$ mod $7$, and that is $zeta cdot 1/2 notin Bbb Q$, where $zeta in Bbb Z_7$ is the primitive third root of unity which is $equiv 2$ mod $7$. (Note that $Bbb Z_7$ contains exactly the sixth roots of unity; the primitive sixth ones are $equiv 3$ resp. $equiv 5$ mod $7$, the primitive third ones are $equiv 2$ resp. $equiv 4$ mod $7$, well and there are $pm 1$).
So in general, even in the case $vert avert_p le 1$ and $vert Xvert_p < 1$ and the real rationality criterion is satisfied, it is not necessarily true that the limit of the $p$-adic series is rational. Rather, it is = (the rational we get from the real consideration) times (some root of unity), so that this product is $equiv 1$ mod $p$. Whether that can be fulfilled by the only rational roots of unity, namely $pm 1$, depends on $X, a$ and $p$ again (in your example in the OP, it can, in my above example, it cannot).
To answer a question in the comments: Sure the values of $f(X)$ evaluated in the two different ways can be identical, e.g. in the trivial case that $a in Bbb N$. Or also, I think, $(X,a,p)=(-63/64, 1/4,3)$. What one needs is that the real rationality criterion is satisfied, so that we have a rational real value of $(1+X)^a$, and the numerator of $(1+X)^a -1$ must be divisible by $p$.
@@ Torsten, Sir many thanks for your excellent answer. Can you help me with the following question? I need to find some infinite series (may be some series originated from physics) that may have rational sum or even diverges in $ mathbb{R}$. Can you give me some source or books from where I will get such kind of series? Thanks
– M. A. SARKAR
2 hours ago
add a comment |
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Not a complete answer, just a collection of hints and remarks.
The series is
$$displaystyle (1+X)^a = sum_{k=0}^infty binom{a}{k}X^k .$$
Real convergence: If $ain Bbb N$, the binomial coefficents become eventually $0$ and this is just a finite sum. If $anotin Bbb N$, one has to use estimates of the usual absolute value of the binomial coefficients. I know next to nothing about this and just googled a bit. According to http://emis.math.tifr.res.in/journals/JIPAM/images/061_06_JIPAM/061_06.pdf, as soon as $a>-1$, certainly $vert Xvert < 1$ is sufficient (and I have the feeling that this bound is reasonable, if not necessary, in general).
Real rationality: Answered in Wojowu's comment on How to find all $x in mathbb{Q}$ and $r in mathbb{Q}$ such that $(1+x)^r$ becomes a rational number?.
$p$-adic convergence: Again if $ain Bbb N$, the binomial coefficents become eventually $0$ and this is just a finite sum. For general $anotin Bbb N$, now one needs estimates for the $p$-adic absolute value of the binomial coefficients. A good thing is that because we are in an ultrametric, we only need to check whether
$$lim_{kto infty}vert binom{a}{k}X^kvert_p = lim_{kto infty}vert binom{a}{k} vert_p cdot vert Xvert_p^k stackrel{?}=0.$$
Again I have to leave this open in general; in analogy to the real case however, one definitely has (cf. http://www.math.uconn.edu/~kconrad/blurbs/gradnumthy/binomialcoeffpadic.pdf, Definition of $p$-adic $(1+x)^alpha$ via binomial series and log/exp): If $vert avert_p le 1$, then all $vert binom{a}{k}vert_p le 1$, meaning that the series certainly converges for those $X$ with $vert Xvert_p < 1$.
$p$-adic rationality: Here is a subtlety. E.g. look at
$$displaystyle (1+(-frac78))^frac13 = sum_{k=0}^infty binom{1/3}{k}(-7/8)^k .$$
In $Bbb R$, the series converges to $1/2$, which is indeed a cube root (more precisely: the unique positive real cube root) of $1/8$. The series also does converge in $Bbb Q_7$, and also to a (!) cube root of $1/8$, but not to $1/2 in Bbb Q$, rather to the unique one which is $equiv 1$ mod $7$, and that is $zeta cdot 1/2 notin Bbb Q$, where $zeta in Bbb Z_7$ is the primitive third root of unity which is $equiv 2$ mod $7$. (Note that $Bbb Z_7$ contains exactly the sixth roots of unity; the primitive sixth ones are $equiv 3$ resp. $equiv 5$ mod $7$, the primitive third ones are $equiv 2$ resp. $equiv 4$ mod $7$, well and there are $pm 1$).
So in general, even in the case $vert avert_p le 1$ and $vert Xvert_p < 1$ and the real rationality criterion is satisfied, it is not necessarily true that the limit of the $p$-adic series is rational. Rather, it is = (the rational we get from the real consideration) times (some root of unity), so that this product is $equiv 1$ mod $p$. Whether that can be fulfilled by the only rational roots of unity, namely $pm 1$, depends on $X, a$ and $p$ again (in your example in the OP, it can, in my above example, it cannot).
To answer a question in the comments: Sure the values of $f(X)$ evaluated in the two different ways can be identical, e.g. in the trivial case that $a in Bbb N$. Or also, I think, $(X,a,p)=(-63/64, 1/4,3)$. What one needs is that the real rationality criterion is satisfied, so that we have a rational real value of $(1+X)^a$, and the numerator of $(1+X)^a -1$ must be divisible by $p$.
@@ Torsten, Sir many thanks for your excellent answer. Can you help me with the following question? I need to find some infinite series (may be some series originated from physics) that may have rational sum or even diverges in $ mathbb{R}$. Can you give me some source or books from where I will get such kind of series? Thanks
– M. A. SARKAR
2 hours ago
add a comment |
Not a complete answer, just a collection of hints and remarks.
The series is
$$displaystyle (1+X)^a = sum_{k=0}^infty binom{a}{k}X^k .$$
Real convergence: If $ain Bbb N$, the binomial coefficents become eventually $0$ and this is just a finite sum. If $anotin Bbb N$, one has to use estimates of the usual absolute value of the binomial coefficients. I know next to nothing about this and just googled a bit. According to http://emis.math.tifr.res.in/journals/JIPAM/images/061_06_JIPAM/061_06.pdf, as soon as $a>-1$, certainly $vert Xvert < 1$ is sufficient (and I have the feeling that this bound is reasonable, if not necessary, in general).
Real rationality: Answered in Wojowu's comment on How to find all $x in mathbb{Q}$ and $r in mathbb{Q}$ such that $(1+x)^r$ becomes a rational number?.
$p$-adic convergence: Again if $ain Bbb N$, the binomial coefficents become eventually $0$ and this is just a finite sum. For general $anotin Bbb N$, now one needs estimates for the $p$-adic absolute value of the binomial coefficients. A good thing is that because we are in an ultrametric, we only need to check whether
$$lim_{kto infty}vert binom{a}{k}X^kvert_p = lim_{kto infty}vert binom{a}{k} vert_p cdot vert Xvert_p^k stackrel{?}=0.$$
Again I have to leave this open in general; in analogy to the real case however, one definitely has (cf. http://www.math.uconn.edu/~kconrad/blurbs/gradnumthy/binomialcoeffpadic.pdf, Definition of $p$-adic $(1+x)^alpha$ via binomial series and log/exp): If $vert avert_p le 1$, then all $vert binom{a}{k}vert_p le 1$, meaning that the series certainly converges for those $X$ with $vert Xvert_p < 1$.
$p$-adic rationality: Here is a subtlety. E.g. look at
$$displaystyle (1+(-frac78))^frac13 = sum_{k=0}^infty binom{1/3}{k}(-7/8)^k .$$
In $Bbb R$, the series converges to $1/2$, which is indeed a cube root (more precisely: the unique positive real cube root) of $1/8$. The series also does converge in $Bbb Q_7$, and also to a (!) cube root of $1/8$, but not to $1/2 in Bbb Q$, rather to the unique one which is $equiv 1$ mod $7$, and that is $zeta cdot 1/2 notin Bbb Q$, where $zeta in Bbb Z_7$ is the primitive third root of unity which is $equiv 2$ mod $7$. (Note that $Bbb Z_7$ contains exactly the sixth roots of unity; the primitive sixth ones are $equiv 3$ resp. $equiv 5$ mod $7$, the primitive third ones are $equiv 2$ resp. $equiv 4$ mod $7$, well and there are $pm 1$).
So in general, even in the case $vert avert_p le 1$ and $vert Xvert_p < 1$ and the real rationality criterion is satisfied, it is not necessarily true that the limit of the $p$-adic series is rational. Rather, it is = (the rational we get from the real consideration) times (some root of unity), so that this product is $equiv 1$ mod $p$. Whether that can be fulfilled by the only rational roots of unity, namely $pm 1$, depends on $X, a$ and $p$ again (in your example in the OP, it can, in my above example, it cannot).
To answer a question in the comments: Sure the values of $f(X)$ evaluated in the two different ways can be identical, e.g. in the trivial case that $a in Bbb N$. Or also, I think, $(X,a,p)=(-63/64, 1/4,3)$. What one needs is that the real rationality criterion is satisfied, so that we have a rational real value of $(1+X)^a$, and the numerator of $(1+X)^a -1$ must be divisible by $p$.
@@ Torsten, Sir many thanks for your excellent answer. Can you help me with the following question? I need to find some infinite series (may be some series originated from physics) that may have rational sum or even diverges in $ mathbb{R}$. Can you give me some source or books from where I will get such kind of series? Thanks
– M. A. SARKAR
2 hours ago
add a comment |
Not a complete answer, just a collection of hints and remarks.
The series is
$$displaystyle (1+X)^a = sum_{k=0}^infty binom{a}{k}X^k .$$
Real convergence: If $ain Bbb N$, the binomial coefficents become eventually $0$ and this is just a finite sum. If $anotin Bbb N$, one has to use estimates of the usual absolute value of the binomial coefficients. I know next to nothing about this and just googled a bit. According to http://emis.math.tifr.res.in/journals/JIPAM/images/061_06_JIPAM/061_06.pdf, as soon as $a>-1$, certainly $vert Xvert < 1$ is sufficient (and I have the feeling that this bound is reasonable, if not necessary, in general).
Real rationality: Answered in Wojowu's comment on How to find all $x in mathbb{Q}$ and $r in mathbb{Q}$ such that $(1+x)^r$ becomes a rational number?.
$p$-adic convergence: Again if $ain Bbb N$, the binomial coefficents become eventually $0$ and this is just a finite sum. For general $anotin Bbb N$, now one needs estimates for the $p$-adic absolute value of the binomial coefficients. A good thing is that because we are in an ultrametric, we only need to check whether
$$lim_{kto infty}vert binom{a}{k}X^kvert_p = lim_{kto infty}vert binom{a}{k} vert_p cdot vert Xvert_p^k stackrel{?}=0.$$
Again I have to leave this open in general; in analogy to the real case however, one definitely has (cf. http://www.math.uconn.edu/~kconrad/blurbs/gradnumthy/binomialcoeffpadic.pdf, Definition of $p$-adic $(1+x)^alpha$ via binomial series and log/exp): If $vert avert_p le 1$, then all $vert binom{a}{k}vert_p le 1$, meaning that the series certainly converges for those $X$ with $vert Xvert_p < 1$.
$p$-adic rationality: Here is a subtlety. E.g. look at
$$displaystyle (1+(-frac78))^frac13 = sum_{k=0}^infty binom{1/3}{k}(-7/8)^k .$$
In $Bbb R$, the series converges to $1/2$, which is indeed a cube root (more precisely: the unique positive real cube root) of $1/8$. The series also does converge in $Bbb Q_7$, and also to a (!) cube root of $1/8$, but not to $1/2 in Bbb Q$, rather to the unique one which is $equiv 1$ mod $7$, and that is $zeta cdot 1/2 notin Bbb Q$, where $zeta in Bbb Z_7$ is the primitive third root of unity which is $equiv 2$ mod $7$. (Note that $Bbb Z_7$ contains exactly the sixth roots of unity; the primitive sixth ones are $equiv 3$ resp. $equiv 5$ mod $7$, the primitive third ones are $equiv 2$ resp. $equiv 4$ mod $7$, well and there are $pm 1$).
So in general, even in the case $vert avert_p le 1$ and $vert Xvert_p < 1$ and the real rationality criterion is satisfied, it is not necessarily true that the limit of the $p$-adic series is rational. Rather, it is = (the rational we get from the real consideration) times (some root of unity), so that this product is $equiv 1$ mod $p$. Whether that can be fulfilled by the only rational roots of unity, namely $pm 1$, depends on $X, a$ and $p$ again (in your example in the OP, it can, in my above example, it cannot).
To answer a question in the comments: Sure the values of $f(X)$ evaluated in the two different ways can be identical, e.g. in the trivial case that $a in Bbb N$. Or also, I think, $(X,a,p)=(-63/64, 1/4,3)$. What one needs is that the real rationality criterion is satisfied, so that we have a rational real value of $(1+X)^a$, and the numerator of $(1+X)^a -1$ must be divisible by $p$.
Not a complete answer, just a collection of hints and remarks.
The series is
$$displaystyle (1+X)^a = sum_{k=0}^infty binom{a}{k}X^k .$$
Real convergence: If $ain Bbb N$, the binomial coefficents become eventually $0$ and this is just a finite sum. If $anotin Bbb N$, one has to use estimates of the usual absolute value of the binomial coefficients. I know next to nothing about this and just googled a bit. According to http://emis.math.tifr.res.in/journals/JIPAM/images/061_06_JIPAM/061_06.pdf, as soon as $a>-1$, certainly $vert Xvert < 1$ is sufficient (and I have the feeling that this bound is reasonable, if not necessary, in general).
Real rationality: Answered in Wojowu's comment on How to find all $x in mathbb{Q}$ and $r in mathbb{Q}$ such that $(1+x)^r$ becomes a rational number?.
$p$-adic convergence: Again if $ain Bbb N$, the binomial coefficents become eventually $0$ and this is just a finite sum. For general $anotin Bbb N$, now one needs estimates for the $p$-adic absolute value of the binomial coefficients. A good thing is that because we are in an ultrametric, we only need to check whether
$$lim_{kto infty}vert binom{a}{k}X^kvert_p = lim_{kto infty}vert binom{a}{k} vert_p cdot vert Xvert_p^k stackrel{?}=0.$$
Again I have to leave this open in general; in analogy to the real case however, one definitely has (cf. http://www.math.uconn.edu/~kconrad/blurbs/gradnumthy/binomialcoeffpadic.pdf, Definition of $p$-adic $(1+x)^alpha$ via binomial series and log/exp): If $vert avert_p le 1$, then all $vert binom{a}{k}vert_p le 1$, meaning that the series certainly converges for those $X$ with $vert Xvert_p < 1$.
$p$-adic rationality: Here is a subtlety. E.g. look at
$$displaystyle (1+(-frac78))^frac13 = sum_{k=0}^infty binom{1/3}{k}(-7/8)^k .$$
In $Bbb R$, the series converges to $1/2$, which is indeed a cube root (more precisely: the unique positive real cube root) of $1/8$. The series also does converge in $Bbb Q_7$, and also to a (!) cube root of $1/8$, but not to $1/2 in Bbb Q$, rather to the unique one which is $equiv 1$ mod $7$, and that is $zeta cdot 1/2 notin Bbb Q$, where $zeta in Bbb Z_7$ is the primitive third root of unity which is $equiv 2$ mod $7$. (Note that $Bbb Z_7$ contains exactly the sixth roots of unity; the primitive sixth ones are $equiv 3$ resp. $equiv 5$ mod $7$, the primitive third ones are $equiv 2$ resp. $equiv 4$ mod $7$, well and there are $pm 1$).
So in general, even in the case $vert avert_p le 1$ and $vert Xvert_p < 1$ and the real rationality criterion is satisfied, it is not necessarily true that the limit of the $p$-adic series is rational. Rather, it is = (the rational we get from the real consideration) times (some root of unity), so that this product is $equiv 1$ mod $p$. Whether that can be fulfilled by the only rational roots of unity, namely $pm 1$, depends on $X, a$ and $p$ again (in your example in the OP, it can, in my above example, it cannot).
To answer a question in the comments: Sure the values of $f(X)$ evaluated in the two different ways can be identical, e.g. in the trivial case that $a in Bbb N$. Or also, I think, $(X,a,p)=(-63/64, 1/4,3)$. What one needs is that the real rationality criterion is satisfied, so that we have a rational real value of $(1+X)^a$, and the numerator of $(1+X)^a -1$ must be divisible by $p$.
edited 3 hours ago
answered 4 hours ago
Torsten Schoeneberg
3,8112833
3,8112833
@@ Torsten, Sir many thanks for your excellent answer. Can you help me with the following question? I need to find some infinite series (may be some series originated from physics) that may have rational sum or even diverges in $ mathbb{R}$. Can you give me some source or books from where I will get such kind of series? Thanks
– M. A. SARKAR
2 hours ago
add a comment |
@@ Torsten, Sir many thanks for your excellent answer. Can you help me with the following question? I need to find some infinite series (may be some series originated from physics) that may have rational sum or even diverges in $ mathbb{R}$. Can you give me some source or books from where I will get such kind of series? Thanks
– M. A. SARKAR
2 hours ago
@@ Torsten, Sir many thanks for your excellent answer. Can you help me with the following question? I need to find some infinite series (may be some series originated from physics) that may have rational sum or even diverges in $ mathbb{R}$. Can you give me some source or books from where I will get such kind of series? Thanks
– M. A. SARKAR
2 hours ago
@@ Torsten, Sir many thanks for your excellent answer. Can you help me with the following question? I need to find some infinite series (may be some series originated from physics) that may have rational sum or even diverges in $ mathbb{R}$. Can you give me some source or books from where I will get such kind of series? Thanks
– M. A. SARKAR
2 hours ago
add a comment |
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1
Some of what you write is unclear. Your example is actually a standard example where the series does converge both $p$-adically and w.r.t. the real metric, and in both cases to rational numbers, but to different ones: Namely, the "real" $f(X) = 4/3$, but the "$7$-adic" $f(X)= -4/3$. I am quite sure I have seen that exact example here, right now I found this essentially same one: math.stackexchange.com/a/2300197/96384
– Torsten Schoeneberg
yesterday
1
But maybe you are just asking for criteria on $X,a,p$ such that both the "really" and the "$p$-adically" evaluated $f(X)$ are $in Bbb Q$ (and not necessarily identical)? Well, it seems to me that then you need two criteria coming from the respective convergence inequalities, and one number theoretic one about rationality of a root.
– Torsten Schoeneberg
yesterday
(The last i.e. rationality criterion having just been given here: math.stackexchange.com/q/3059365/96384. By the way, I imply from your commenting on math.stackexchange.com/q/3054781/96384 that you are identical to the account "arifamath" who asked that question. I wonder how appropriate it is to have such double accounts.)
– Torsten Schoeneberg
yesterday
@TorstenSchoeneberg, oh no. Actually we are a group of research scholars here in our University. That account belong to one of my friend. Since one account is limited to ask several questions, we sometimes ask questions from others accounts as we are group of scholars with same topic.
– M. A. SARKAR
yesterday
@TorstenSchoeneberg, your second comment is applicable for my question. I need to find criteria on $X,a,p$ such that $f(X) in mathbb{Q}$ . I do not need the value $f(X)$ identical both in really or p-adically.. By the way , Can the value of $f(X)$ be identical both in real norm as well p-adic norm? Any hintz please
– M. A. SARKAR
yesterday