Do $mathbb{N}=left{1,2,dotsright}$ and $mathbb{N}_0=left{0,1,2,dotsright}$ determine the same algebra?












-1












$begingroup$


In what follows we shall assume the conventional interpretation of
the symbols $'=','ne'$ and the other logical symbols used to formulate
definitions. Lowercase Latin letters $a,b,dots,z$
will designate number variables. The notation $mathcal{P}left[nright]$
represents a proposition regarding a number variable $n$. By a number
we mean an element of the set $mathbb{N}$ defined by the following
axioms:



I. $1inmathbb{N}.$



II. $underset{a}{forall}exists a^{prime}inmathbb{N}.$



III. $a^{prime}=b^{prime}implies a=b.$



IV. $underset{a}{forall}a^{prime}ne1.$



V. $left(mathcal{P}left[1right]landunderset{n}{forall}left(mathcal{P}left[nright]impliesmathcal{P}left[n^{prime}right]right)right)impliesunderset{n}{forall}mathcal{P}left[nright].$



The object $a^{prime}$ is called the successor of $a$. That is my rendering of the axioms attributed to Peano.



We now define the set of functions



$$
Phi=left{ varphi_{a}:mathbb{N}tomathbb{N}backepsilonvarphi_{a}left[x^{prime}right]equivvarphi_{a}left[xright]^{prime}right} .
$$



For notational convenience we also define



$$
left[_+right]:mathbb{N}_{1}toPhi
$$



so that



$$
left[a+_right]equivvarphi_{a},
$$



to be interpreted as
$$
a+b:mathbb{N}timesmathbb{N}tomathbb{N}text{ where }a+bequivvarphi_{a}left[bright].
$$



From the above definitions we may prove the associative and commutative
properties of addition. By defining the symbols $'<'$ and $'>'$
as meaning



$$
a<bimpliesunderset{c}{exists}a+c=btext{ and }a>bequiv b<a,
$$



we may define (or show) the well ordering of $mathbb{N}.$



If we now define the notation $bar{a}$ to mean $a<bar{a},$ we
have
$$
negunderset{x}{exists}x+bar{a}=a.
$$



That is, $mathbb{N}$ contains no negative numbers. We also have
the condition
$$
underset{a,b}{forall}a+bne a.
$$



Which says $0notinmathbb{N},$ or that there is no additive identity
element
in our set of numbers.



If we define numbers to be the set $mathbb{N}_{0}$ by replacing
the symbol $'1'$ with the symbol $'0'$, without bestowing additional
properties to $'0'$, we arrive at exactly the same algebraic structure
as we have for $mathbb{N}.$



Let us assume we agree that by the natural numbers we intend
the most fundamental complete set of numbers of interest to a mathematician.
We shall further assume that the only reasonable choices are between
$mathbb{mathbb{N}}$ and $mathbb{N}_{0}$ as defined above. To
argue that it is preferable to choose $mathbb{N}_{0}$ rather than
$mathbb{N}$ presupposes that the element which is not a successor
has a different interpretation when symbolized as $'1'$ than when
symbolized $'0'.$



So my question is this: is the basic algebraic structure intended
by
$mathbb{mathbb{N}}=left{ 1,2,dots,0right} $ distinct form
that intended by
$mathbb{N}_{0}=left{ 0,1,2,dotsright} ?$










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$

















    -1












    $begingroup$


    In what follows we shall assume the conventional interpretation of
    the symbols $'=','ne'$ and the other logical symbols used to formulate
    definitions. Lowercase Latin letters $a,b,dots,z$
    will designate number variables. The notation $mathcal{P}left[nright]$
    represents a proposition regarding a number variable $n$. By a number
    we mean an element of the set $mathbb{N}$ defined by the following
    axioms:



    I. $1inmathbb{N}.$



    II. $underset{a}{forall}exists a^{prime}inmathbb{N}.$



    III. $a^{prime}=b^{prime}implies a=b.$



    IV. $underset{a}{forall}a^{prime}ne1.$



    V. $left(mathcal{P}left[1right]landunderset{n}{forall}left(mathcal{P}left[nright]impliesmathcal{P}left[n^{prime}right]right)right)impliesunderset{n}{forall}mathcal{P}left[nright].$



    The object $a^{prime}$ is called the successor of $a$. That is my rendering of the axioms attributed to Peano.



    We now define the set of functions



    $$
    Phi=left{ varphi_{a}:mathbb{N}tomathbb{N}backepsilonvarphi_{a}left[x^{prime}right]equivvarphi_{a}left[xright]^{prime}right} .
    $$



    For notational convenience we also define



    $$
    left[_+right]:mathbb{N}_{1}toPhi
    $$



    so that



    $$
    left[a+_right]equivvarphi_{a},
    $$



    to be interpreted as
    $$
    a+b:mathbb{N}timesmathbb{N}tomathbb{N}text{ where }a+bequivvarphi_{a}left[bright].
    $$



    From the above definitions we may prove the associative and commutative
    properties of addition. By defining the symbols $'<'$ and $'>'$
    as meaning



    $$
    a<bimpliesunderset{c}{exists}a+c=btext{ and }a>bequiv b<a,
    $$



    we may define (or show) the well ordering of $mathbb{N}.$



    If we now define the notation $bar{a}$ to mean $a<bar{a},$ we
    have
    $$
    negunderset{x}{exists}x+bar{a}=a.
    $$



    That is, $mathbb{N}$ contains no negative numbers. We also have
    the condition
    $$
    underset{a,b}{forall}a+bne a.
    $$



    Which says $0notinmathbb{N},$ or that there is no additive identity
    element
    in our set of numbers.



    If we define numbers to be the set $mathbb{N}_{0}$ by replacing
    the symbol $'1'$ with the symbol $'0'$, without bestowing additional
    properties to $'0'$, we arrive at exactly the same algebraic structure
    as we have for $mathbb{N}.$



    Let us assume we agree that by the natural numbers we intend
    the most fundamental complete set of numbers of interest to a mathematician.
    We shall further assume that the only reasonable choices are between
    $mathbb{mathbb{N}}$ and $mathbb{N}_{0}$ as defined above. To
    argue that it is preferable to choose $mathbb{N}_{0}$ rather than
    $mathbb{N}$ presupposes that the element which is not a successor
    has a different interpretation when symbolized as $'1'$ than when
    symbolized $'0'.$



    So my question is this: is the basic algebraic structure intended
    by
    $mathbb{mathbb{N}}=left{ 1,2,dots,0right} $ distinct form
    that intended by
    $mathbb{N}_{0}=left{ 0,1,2,dotsright} ?$










    share|cite|improve this question









    $endgroup$















      -1












      -1








      -1





      $begingroup$


      In what follows we shall assume the conventional interpretation of
      the symbols $'=','ne'$ and the other logical symbols used to formulate
      definitions. Lowercase Latin letters $a,b,dots,z$
      will designate number variables. The notation $mathcal{P}left[nright]$
      represents a proposition regarding a number variable $n$. By a number
      we mean an element of the set $mathbb{N}$ defined by the following
      axioms:



      I. $1inmathbb{N}.$



      II. $underset{a}{forall}exists a^{prime}inmathbb{N}.$



      III. $a^{prime}=b^{prime}implies a=b.$



      IV. $underset{a}{forall}a^{prime}ne1.$



      V. $left(mathcal{P}left[1right]landunderset{n}{forall}left(mathcal{P}left[nright]impliesmathcal{P}left[n^{prime}right]right)right)impliesunderset{n}{forall}mathcal{P}left[nright].$



      The object $a^{prime}$ is called the successor of $a$. That is my rendering of the axioms attributed to Peano.



      We now define the set of functions



      $$
      Phi=left{ varphi_{a}:mathbb{N}tomathbb{N}backepsilonvarphi_{a}left[x^{prime}right]equivvarphi_{a}left[xright]^{prime}right} .
      $$



      For notational convenience we also define



      $$
      left[_+right]:mathbb{N}_{1}toPhi
      $$



      so that



      $$
      left[a+_right]equivvarphi_{a},
      $$



      to be interpreted as
      $$
      a+b:mathbb{N}timesmathbb{N}tomathbb{N}text{ where }a+bequivvarphi_{a}left[bright].
      $$



      From the above definitions we may prove the associative and commutative
      properties of addition. By defining the symbols $'<'$ and $'>'$
      as meaning



      $$
      a<bimpliesunderset{c}{exists}a+c=btext{ and }a>bequiv b<a,
      $$



      we may define (or show) the well ordering of $mathbb{N}.$



      If we now define the notation $bar{a}$ to mean $a<bar{a},$ we
      have
      $$
      negunderset{x}{exists}x+bar{a}=a.
      $$



      That is, $mathbb{N}$ contains no negative numbers. We also have
      the condition
      $$
      underset{a,b}{forall}a+bne a.
      $$



      Which says $0notinmathbb{N},$ or that there is no additive identity
      element
      in our set of numbers.



      If we define numbers to be the set $mathbb{N}_{0}$ by replacing
      the symbol $'1'$ with the symbol $'0'$, without bestowing additional
      properties to $'0'$, we arrive at exactly the same algebraic structure
      as we have for $mathbb{N}.$



      Let us assume we agree that by the natural numbers we intend
      the most fundamental complete set of numbers of interest to a mathematician.
      We shall further assume that the only reasonable choices are between
      $mathbb{mathbb{N}}$ and $mathbb{N}_{0}$ as defined above. To
      argue that it is preferable to choose $mathbb{N}_{0}$ rather than
      $mathbb{N}$ presupposes that the element which is not a successor
      has a different interpretation when symbolized as $'1'$ than when
      symbolized $'0'.$



      So my question is this: is the basic algebraic structure intended
      by
      $mathbb{mathbb{N}}=left{ 1,2,dots,0right} $ distinct form
      that intended by
      $mathbb{N}_{0}=left{ 0,1,2,dotsright} ?$










      share|cite|improve this question









      $endgroup$




      In what follows we shall assume the conventional interpretation of
      the symbols $'=','ne'$ and the other logical symbols used to formulate
      definitions. Lowercase Latin letters $a,b,dots,z$
      will designate number variables. The notation $mathcal{P}left[nright]$
      represents a proposition regarding a number variable $n$. By a number
      we mean an element of the set $mathbb{N}$ defined by the following
      axioms:



      I. $1inmathbb{N}.$



      II. $underset{a}{forall}exists a^{prime}inmathbb{N}.$



      III. $a^{prime}=b^{prime}implies a=b.$



      IV. $underset{a}{forall}a^{prime}ne1.$



      V. $left(mathcal{P}left[1right]landunderset{n}{forall}left(mathcal{P}left[nright]impliesmathcal{P}left[n^{prime}right]right)right)impliesunderset{n}{forall}mathcal{P}left[nright].$



      The object $a^{prime}$ is called the successor of $a$. That is my rendering of the axioms attributed to Peano.



      We now define the set of functions



      $$
      Phi=left{ varphi_{a}:mathbb{N}tomathbb{N}backepsilonvarphi_{a}left[x^{prime}right]equivvarphi_{a}left[xright]^{prime}right} .
      $$



      For notational convenience we also define



      $$
      left[_+right]:mathbb{N}_{1}toPhi
      $$



      so that



      $$
      left[a+_right]equivvarphi_{a},
      $$



      to be interpreted as
      $$
      a+b:mathbb{N}timesmathbb{N}tomathbb{N}text{ where }a+bequivvarphi_{a}left[bright].
      $$



      From the above definitions we may prove the associative and commutative
      properties of addition. By defining the symbols $'<'$ and $'>'$
      as meaning



      $$
      a<bimpliesunderset{c}{exists}a+c=btext{ and }a>bequiv b<a,
      $$



      we may define (or show) the well ordering of $mathbb{N}.$



      If we now define the notation $bar{a}$ to mean $a<bar{a},$ we
      have
      $$
      negunderset{x}{exists}x+bar{a}=a.
      $$



      That is, $mathbb{N}$ contains no negative numbers. We also have
      the condition
      $$
      underset{a,b}{forall}a+bne a.
      $$



      Which says $0notinmathbb{N},$ or that there is no additive identity
      element
      in our set of numbers.



      If we define numbers to be the set $mathbb{N}_{0}$ by replacing
      the symbol $'1'$ with the symbol $'0'$, without bestowing additional
      properties to $'0'$, we arrive at exactly the same algebraic structure
      as we have for $mathbb{N}.$



      Let us assume we agree that by the natural numbers we intend
      the most fundamental complete set of numbers of interest to a mathematician.
      We shall further assume that the only reasonable choices are between
      $mathbb{mathbb{N}}$ and $mathbb{N}_{0}$ as defined above. To
      argue that it is preferable to choose $mathbb{N}_{0}$ rather than
      $mathbb{N}$ presupposes that the element which is not a successor
      has a different interpretation when symbolized as $'1'$ than when
      symbolized $'0'.$



      So my question is this: is the basic algebraic structure intended
      by
      $mathbb{mathbb{N}}=left{ 1,2,dots,0right} $ distinct form
      that intended by
      $mathbb{N}_{0}=left{ 0,1,2,dotsright} ?$







      elementary-number-theory elementary-set-theory logic






      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question











      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question










      asked Jan 7 at 3:21









      Steven HattonSteven Hatton

      741315




      741315






















          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          3












          $begingroup$

          Clearly, $nmapsto n+1$ is an isomorphism between these two, hence both have the same logical structure.
          If you prefer to always work with $Bbb N$, you may want to introduce he operation $+^*$, where $a+^* b$ is the unique $c$ with $c'=a+b$. Then $+^*$ is associative, abeliam amd does have a neutral element - an operation that sometimes comes in handy. If you need suc an operation on $Bbb N$, you can use $+^*$ - or work in the isomorphic $Bbb N_0$, where $+^*$ becomes ordinary addition. This makes $(Bbb N,+^*)$ isomorphic to $(Bbb N_0,+)$, but of course $(Bbb N,+)$ and $(Bbb N_0,+)$ are not isomorphic.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            Hence, by process of extension, one may begin with $left(mathbb{N},+right)$ and arrive at $left(mathbb{N}_0,+right)$. In that approach, '0' is "invented" to solve a specific kind of equation in the same way that $i=sqrt{-1}$ is.
            $endgroup$
            – Steven Hatton
            Jan 7 at 3:59











          Your Answer





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          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          3












          $begingroup$

          Clearly, $nmapsto n+1$ is an isomorphism between these two, hence both have the same logical structure.
          If you prefer to always work with $Bbb N$, you may want to introduce he operation $+^*$, where $a+^* b$ is the unique $c$ with $c'=a+b$. Then $+^*$ is associative, abeliam amd does have a neutral element - an operation that sometimes comes in handy. If you need suc an operation on $Bbb N$, you can use $+^*$ - or work in the isomorphic $Bbb N_0$, where $+^*$ becomes ordinary addition. This makes $(Bbb N,+^*)$ isomorphic to $(Bbb N_0,+)$, but of course $(Bbb N,+)$ and $(Bbb N_0,+)$ are not isomorphic.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            Hence, by process of extension, one may begin with $left(mathbb{N},+right)$ and arrive at $left(mathbb{N}_0,+right)$. In that approach, '0' is "invented" to solve a specific kind of equation in the same way that $i=sqrt{-1}$ is.
            $endgroup$
            – Steven Hatton
            Jan 7 at 3:59
















          3












          $begingroup$

          Clearly, $nmapsto n+1$ is an isomorphism between these two, hence both have the same logical structure.
          If you prefer to always work with $Bbb N$, you may want to introduce he operation $+^*$, where $a+^* b$ is the unique $c$ with $c'=a+b$. Then $+^*$ is associative, abeliam amd does have a neutral element - an operation that sometimes comes in handy. If you need suc an operation on $Bbb N$, you can use $+^*$ - or work in the isomorphic $Bbb N_0$, where $+^*$ becomes ordinary addition. This makes $(Bbb N,+^*)$ isomorphic to $(Bbb N_0,+)$, but of course $(Bbb N,+)$ and $(Bbb N_0,+)$ are not isomorphic.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            Hence, by process of extension, one may begin with $left(mathbb{N},+right)$ and arrive at $left(mathbb{N}_0,+right)$. In that approach, '0' is "invented" to solve a specific kind of equation in the same way that $i=sqrt{-1}$ is.
            $endgroup$
            – Steven Hatton
            Jan 7 at 3:59














          3












          3








          3





          $begingroup$

          Clearly, $nmapsto n+1$ is an isomorphism between these two, hence both have the same logical structure.
          If you prefer to always work with $Bbb N$, you may want to introduce he operation $+^*$, where $a+^* b$ is the unique $c$ with $c'=a+b$. Then $+^*$ is associative, abeliam amd does have a neutral element - an operation that sometimes comes in handy. If you need suc an operation on $Bbb N$, you can use $+^*$ - or work in the isomorphic $Bbb N_0$, where $+^*$ becomes ordinary addition. This makes $(Bbb N,+^*)$ isomorphic to $(Bbb N_0,+)$, but of course $(Bbb N,+)$ and $(Bbb N_0,+)$ are not isomorphic.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          Clearly, $nmapsto n+1$ is an isomorphism between these two, hence both have the same logical structure.
          If you prefer to always work with $Bbb N$, you may want to introduce he operation $+^*$, where $a+^* b$ is the unique $c$ with $c'=a+b$. Then $+^*$ is associative, abeliam amd does have a neutral element - an operation that sometimes comes in handy. If you need suc an operation on $Bbb N$, you can use $+^*$ - or work in the isomorphic $Bbb N_0$, where $+^*$ becomes ordinary addition. This makes $(Bbb N,+^*)$ isomorphic to $(Bbb N_0,+)$, but of course $(Bbb N,+)$ and $(Bbb N_0,+)$ are not isomorphic.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered Jan 7 at 3:36









          Hagen von EitzenHagen von Eitzen

          277k21269496




          277k21269496












          • $begingroup$
            Hence, by process of extension, one may begin with $left(mathbb{N},+right)$ and arrive at $left(mathbb{N}_0,+right)$. In that approach, '0' is "invented" to solve a specific kind of equation in the same way that $i=sqrt{-1}$ is.
            $endgroup$
            – Steven Hatton
            Jan 7 at 3:59


















          • $begingroup$
            Hence, by process of extension, one may begin with $left(mathbb{N},+right)$ and arrive at $left(mathbb{N}_0,+right)$. In that approach, '0' is "invented" to solve a specific kind of equation in the same way that $i=sqrt{-1}$ is.
            $endgroup$
            – Steven Hatton
            Jan 7 at 3:59
















          $begingroup$
          Hence, by process of extension, one may begin with $left(mathbb{N},+right)$ and arrive at $left(mathbb{N}_0,+right)$. In that approach, '0' is "invented" to solve a specific kind of equation in the same way that $i=sqrt{-1}$ is.
          $endgroup$
          – Steven Hatton
          Jan 7 at 3:59




          $begingroup$
          Hence, by process of extension, one may begin with $left(mathbb{N},+right)$ and arrive at $left(mathbb{N}_0,+right)$. In that approach, '0' is "invented" to solve a specific kind of equation in the same way that $i=sqrt{-1}$ is.
          $endgroup$
          – Steven Hatton
          Jan 7 at 3:59


















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