Why are two permutations conjugate iff they have the same cycle structure?
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I have heard that two permutations are conjugate if they have the same cyclic structure. Is there an intuitive way to understand why this is?
abstract-algebra group-theory permutations symmetric-groups
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
I have heard that two permutations are conjugate if they have the same cyclic structure. Is there an intuitive way to understand why this is?
abstract-algebra group-theory permutations symmetric-groups
$endgroup$
8
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Have you read a proof of this fact, and found it to be unintuitive?
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– Jonas Meyer
Jun 28 '11 at 3:56
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They're not: $(1 2) (1) = (1) (1 2) implies (1 2)$ is conjugate with $(1)$ even though they have different cycle structure.
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– Zaz
Nov 13 '17 at 22:13
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@Zaz That's not how conjugates are defined. If $a b = b c implies b^{-1} a b = c text{ for } a,b,c in G$ then $a$ and $c$ are said to be conjugates. You're example just shows that $(12)$ and $(12)$ are conjugates i.e. they lie in the same conjugacy class, which is trivial. For $(12)$ to be conjugate with $(1)$ you have to show the existence of some $g in G$ such that $g^{-1} (12) g = (1)$ and no such $g$ exists, hence $(12)$ and $(1)$ are not conjugates.
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– Aditya Sriram
Sep 15 '18 at 8:46
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I have heard that two permutations are conjugate if they have the same cyclic structure. Is there an intuitive way to understand why this is?
abstract-algebra group-theory permutations symmetric-groups
$endgroup$
I have heard that two permutations are conjugate if they have the same cyclic structure. Is there an intuitive way to understand why this is?
abstract-algebra group-theory permutations symmetric-groups
abstract-algebra group-theory permutations symmetric-groups
edited Oct 12 '15 at 17:12
Martin Sleziak
44.7k8117272
44.7k8117272
asked Jun 28 '11 at 3:53
Han SoloHan Solo
196143
196143
8
$begingroup$
Have you read a proof of this fact, and found it to be unintuitive?
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– Jonas Meyer
Jun 28 '11 at 3:56
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They're not: $(1 2) (1) = (1) (1 2) implies (1 2)$ is conjugate with $(1)$ even though they have different cycle structure.
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– Zaz
Nov 13 '17 at 22:13
$begingroup$
@Zaz That's not how conjugates are defined. If $a b = b c implies b^{-1} a b = c text{ for } a,b,c in G$ then $a$ and $c$ are said to be conjugates. You're example just shows that $(12)$ and $(12)$ are conjugates i.e. they lie in the same conjugacy class, which is trivial. For $(12)$ to be conjugate with $(1)$ you have to show the existence of some $g in G$ such that $g^{-1} (12) g = (1)$ and no such $g$ exists, hence $(12)$ and $(1)$ are not conjugates.
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– Aditya Sriram
Sep 15 '18 at 8:46
add a comment |
8
$begingroup$
Have you read a proof of this fact, and found it to be unintuitive?
$endgroup$
– Jonas Meyer
Jun 28 '11 at 3:56
$begingroup$
They're not: $(1 2) (1) = (1) (1 2) implies (1 2)$ is conjugate with $(1)$ even though they have different cycle structure.
$endgroup$
– Zaz
Nov 13 '17 at 22:13
$begingroup$
@Zaz That's not how conjugates are defined. If $a b = b c implies b^{-1} a b = c text{ for } a,b,c in G$ then $a$ and $c$ are said to be conjugates. You're example just shows that $(12)$ and $(12)$ are conjugates i.e. they lie in the same conjugacy class, which is trivial. For $(12)$ to be conjugate with $(1)$ you have to show the existence of some $g in G$ such that $g^{-1} (12) g = (1)$ and no such $g$ exists, hence $(12)$ and $(1)$ are not conjugates.
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– Aditya Sriram
Sep 15 '18 at 8:46
8
8
$begingroup$
Have you read a proof of this fact, and found it to be unintuitive?
$endgroup$
– Jonas Meyer
Jun 28 '11 at 3:56
$begingroup$
Have you read a proof of this fact, and found it to be unintuitive?
$endgroup$
– Jonas Meyer
Jun 28 '11 at 3:56
$begingroup$
They're not: $(1 2) (1) = (1) (1 2) implies (1 2)$ is conjugate with $(1)$ even though they have different cycle structure.
$endgroup$
– Zaz
Nov 13 '17 at 22:13
$begingroup$
They're not: $(1 2) (1) = (1) (1 2) implies (1 2)$ is conjugate with $(1)$ even though they have different cycle structure.
$endgroup$
– Zaz
Nov 13 '17 at 22:13
$begingroup$
@Zaz That's not how conjugates are defined. If $a b = b c implies b^{-1} a b = c text{ for } a,b,c in G$ then $a$ and $c$ are said to be conjugates. You're example just shows that $(12)$ and $(12)$ are conjugates i.e. they lie in the same conjugacy class, which is trivial. For $(12)$ to be conjugate with $(1)$ you have to show the existence of some $g in G$ such that $g^{-1} (12) g = (1)$ and no such $g$ exists, hence $(12)$ and $(1)$ are not conjugates.
$endgroup$
– Aditya Sriram
Sep 15 '18 at 8:46
$begingroup$
@Zaz That's not how conjugates are defined. If $a b = b c implies b^{-1} a b = c text{ for } a,b,c in G$ then $a$ and $c$ are said to be conjugates. You're example just shows that $(12)$ and $(12)$ are conjugates i.e. they lie in the same conjugacy class, which is trivial. For $(12)$ to be conjugate with $(1)$ you have to show the existence of some $g in G$ such that $g^{-1} (12) g = (1)$ and no such $g$ exists, hence $(12)$ and $(1)$ are not conjugates.
$endgroup$
– Aditya Sriram
Sep 15 '18 at 8:46
add a comment |
4 Answers
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It's much like with linear transformations: conjugating a matrix amounts to a "change of basis", a translation from one basis to another, but similar matrices still represent the same linear transformation.
Conjugating by a permutation amounts to "translating" into new labels for the elements being permuted, so "similar permutations" (conjugate permutations) must represent the same underlying "shuffling" of the elements of the set, just under possibly different names.
Formally: Suppose that $sigma$ and $tau$ are permutations.
Claim. Let $rho = tausigmatau^{-1}$ (multiplication corresponding to composition of functions). If $sigma(i)=j$, then $rho(tau(i)) = tau(j)$. In particular, the cycle structure of $rho$ is the same as the cycle structure of $sigma$, replacing each entry $a$ with $tau(a)$.
Proof. $rho(tau(i)) = tausigmatau^{-1}tau(i) = tausigma(i) = tau(j)$. QED.
Conversely, suppose that $sigma$ and $rho$ have the same cycle structure. List the cycles of $sigma$ above the cycles of $rho$, aligning cycles of the same length with one another. Now interpret this as the two-line presentation of a permutation, and call it $tau$; then $tausigmatau^{-1}=rho$ by the claim.
For example, if $sigma=(1,3,2,4)(5,6)$ and $rho=(5,2,3,1)(6,4)$, then write
$$begin{array}{cccccc}
1&3&2&4&5&6\
5&2&3&1&6&4
end{array}$$
Then we let $tau$ be the permutation $1mapsto 5$, $3mapsto 2$, $2mapsto 3$, $4mapsto 1$, $5mapsto 6$, and $6mapsto 4$. Then by the claim above, $tausigmatau^{-1}=rho$. (Note. As Gerry Myerson notes, if we aren't working in all of $S_n$, we may not have $tau$ in whatever subgroup we happen to be working in; so there is an implicit assumption for the "if" part that we are working in $S_n$).
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add a comment |
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Warning: the permutations are conjugate $bf in S_n$ if they have the same cycle structure. This may not be true in subgroups of $S_n$. For example, $A_4$ is the alternating group on 4 symbols, it consists of the even permutations in $S_4$. The elements $(1 2 3)$ and $(1 3 2)$ of $A_4$ have the same cycle structure, but they are not conjugate in $A_4$. That is, there are elements $g$ in $S_4$ such that $g^{-1}(1 2 3)g=(1 3 2)$, but there is no such element in $A_4$.
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1
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Thank you for your answer, sir. How can we see that for a cycle we have the equation $r(i_1,i_2,dots,i_k)r^{−1}=(r(i_1),r(i_2),dots,r(i_k))$?
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– Student
Jun 22 '14 at 13:30
1
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Why don't you post that as a question, instead of hiding it in a comment on an old answer?
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– Gerry Myerson
Jun 22 '14 at 23:08
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Very well, I'll ask my question in a separate post. I "hid" it in a comment becouse of this thread.
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– Student
Jun 23 '14 at 5:49
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@Student - where did you asked the question? I can't find it! I had to asked again in math.stackexchange.com/questions/1700180/… but no answer yet (for such a widely used formula no proof!).
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– Liebe
Mar 16 '16 at 14:42
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I don't remember, but you can look through my questions, @Liebe.
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– Student
Mar 18 '16 at 22:22
add a comment |
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The intuitive way to see this is to realize that "conjugation" in a permutation group is the same as "renaming". Take some permutation; conjugate it by (1 2), the permutation that swaps 1 and 2; what's the result? Calculate a few examples, and you'll see that the result is the same as the original permutation with 1 and 2 changing roles.
Another good way to understand this is to separate the domains of the permutation and the conjugation. If $A$ is a set and $sigma$ is some permutation of the objects of $A$ (take $A={1,2,ldots, n}$ for example), imagine there's a new set $Z$ of the same cardinality as $A$ and a one-to-one, onto mapping $f:Zto A$. What is $f^{-1} sigma f$? It's a function on $Z$ which first maps everything to $A$, permutes according to $sigma$, and maps back along the same "mapping lines" as $f$. It should be relatively obvious that the result "does to $Z$ exactly what $sigma$ does to $A$". Again, working out a few small examples should help.
So, conjugation in $S_n$ is the same thing only when $Z$ happens to be the same set as $A$; the "names" and the "objects" are one and the same.
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add a comment |
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Suppose $rho=pisigmapi^{-1}$, for any $min Z$,
we have $rho^m=pisigma^mpi^{-1}$, i.e. $rho^mpi=pisigma^m$.
For a cycle $(i,sigma(i),ldots,sigma^{r-1}(i))$, we have
$$(pi(i),pisigma(i),ldots,pisigma^{r-1}(i))
=(j,rho(j),ldots,rho^{r-1}(j))$$
where $j=pi(i)$. This is intuitive, isn't it?
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add a comment |
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4 Answers
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4 Answers
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$begingroup$
It's much like with linear transformations: conjugating a matrix amounts to a "change of basis", a translation from one basis to another, but similar matrices still represent the same linear transformation.
Conjugating by a permutation amounts to "translating" into new labels for the elements being permuted, so "similar permutations" (conjugate permutations) must represent the same underlying "shuffling" of the elements of the set, just under possibly different names.
Formally: Suppose that $sigma$ and $tau$ are permutations.
Claim. Let $rho = tausigmatau^{-1}$ (multiplication corresponding to composition of functions). If $sigma(i)=j$, then $rho(tau(i)) = tau(j)$. In particular, the cycle structure of $rho$ is the same as the cycle structure of $sigma$, replacing each entry $a$ with $tau(a)$.
Proof. $rho(tau(i)) = tausigmatau^{-1}tau(i) = tausigma(i) = tau(j)$. QED.
Conversely, suppose that $sigma$ and $rho$ have the same cycle structure. List the cycles of $sigma$ above the cycles of $rho$, aligning cycles of the same length with one another. Now interpret this as the two-line presentation of a permutation, and call it $tau$; then $tausigmatau^{-1}=rho$ by the claim.
For example, if $sigma=(1,3,2,4)(5,6)$ and $rho=(5,2,3,1)(6,4)$, then write
$$begin{array}{cccccc}
1&3&2&4&5&6\
5&2&3&1&6&4
end{array}$$
Then we let $tau$ be the permutation $1mapsto 5$, $3mapsto 2$, $2mapsto 3$, $4mapsto 1$, $5mapsto 6$, and $6mapsto 4$. Then by the claim above, $tausigmatau^{-1}=rho$. (Note. As Gerry Myerson notes, if we aren't working in all of $S_n$, we may not have $tau$ in whatever subgroup we happen to be working in; so there is an implicit assumption for the "if" part that we are working in $S_n$).
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It's much like with linear transformations: conjugating a matrix amounts to a "change of basis", a translation from one basis to another, but similar matrices still represent the same linear transformation.
Conjugating by a permutation amounts to "translating" into new labels for the elements being permuted, so "similar permutations" (conjugate permutations) must represent the same underlying "shuffling" of the elements of the set, just under possibly different names.
Formally: Suppose that $sigma$ and $tau$ are permutations.
Claim. Let $rho = tausigmatau^{-1}$ (multiplication corresponding to composition of functions). If $sigma(i)=j$, then $rho(tau(i)) = tau(j)$. In particular, the cycle structure of $rho$ is the same as the cycle structure of $sigma$, replacing each entry $a$ with $tau(a)$.
Proof. $rho(tau(i)) = tausigmatau^{-1}tau(i) = tausigma(i) = tau(j)$. QED.
Conversely, suppose that $sigma$ and $rho$ have the same cycle structure. List the cycles of $sigma$ above the cycles of $rho$, aligning cycles of the same length with one another. Now interpret this as the two-line presentation of a permutation, and call it $tau$; then $tausigmatau^{-1}=rho$ by the claim.
For example, if $sigma=(1,3,2,4)(5,6)$ and $rho=(5,2,3,1)(6,4)$, then write
$$begin{array}{cccccc}
1&3&2&4&5&6\
5&2&3&1&6&4
end{array}$$
Then we let $tau$ be the permutation $1mapsto 5$, $3mapsto 2$, $2mapsto 3$, $4mapsto 1$, $5mapsto 6$, and $6mapsto 4$. Then by the claim above, $tausigmatau^{-1}=rho$. (Note. As Gerry Myerson notes, if we aren't working in all of $S_n$, we may not have $tau$ in whatever subgroup we happen to be working in; so there is an implicit assumption for the "if" part that we are working in $S_n$).
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It's much like with linear transformations: conjugating a matrix amounts to a "change of basis", a translation from one basis to another, but similar matrices still represent the same linear transformation.
Conjugating by a permutation amounts to "translating" into new labels for the elements being permuted, so "similar permutations" (conjugate permutations) must represent the same underlying "shuffling" of the elements of the set, just under possibly different names.
Formally: Suppose that $sigma$ and $tau$ are permutations.
Claim. Let $rho = tausigmatau^{-1}$ (multiplication corresponding to composition of functions). If $sigma(i)=j$, then $rho(tau(i)) = tau(j)$. In particular, the cycle structure of $rho$ is the same as the cycle structure of $sigma$, replacing each entry $a$ with $tau(a)$.
Proof. $rho(tau(i)) = tausigmatau^{-1}tau(i) = tausigma(i) = tau(j)$. QED.
Conversely, suppose that $sigma$ and $rho$ have the same cycle structure. List the cycles of $sigma$ above the cycles of $rho$, aligning cycles of the same length with one another. Now interpret this as the two-line presentation of a permutation, and call it $tau$; then $tausigmatau^{-1}=rho$ by the claim.
For example, if $sigma=(1,3,2,4)(5,6)$ and $rho=(5,2,3,1)(6,4)$, then write
$$begin{array}{cccccc}
1&3&2&4&5&6\
5&2&3&1&6&4
end{array}$$
Then we let $tau$ be the permutation $1mapsto 5$, $3mapsto 2$, $2mapsto 3$, $4mapsto 1$, $5mapsto 6$, and $6mapsto 4$. Then by the claim above, $tausigmatau^{-1}=rho$. (Note. As Gerry Myerson notes, if we aren't working in all of $S_n$, we may not have $tau$ in whatever subgroup we happen to be working in; so there is an implicit assumption for the "if" part that we are working in $S_n$).
$endgroup$
It's much like with linear transformations: conjugating a matrix amounts to a "change of basis", a translation from one basis to another, but similar matrices still represent the same linear transformation.
Conjugating by a permutation amounts to "translating" into new labels for the elements being permuted, so "similar permutations" (conjugate permutations) must represent the same underlying "shuffling" of the elements of the set, just under possibly different names.
Formally: Suppose that $sigma$ and $tau$ are permutations.
Claim. Let $rho = tausigmatau^{-1}$ (multiplication corresponding to composition of functions). If $sigma(i)=j$, then $rho(tau(i)) = tau(j)$. In particular, the cycle structure of $rho$ is the same as the cycle structure of $sigma$, replacing each entry $a$ with $tau(a)$.
Proof. $rho(tau(i)) = tausigmatau^{-1}tau(i) = tausigma(i) = tau(j)$. QED.
Conversely, suppose that $sigma$ and $rho$ have the same cycle structure. List the cycles of $sigma$ above the cycles of $rho$, aligning cycles of the same length with one another. Now interpret this as the two-line presentation of a permutation, and call it $tau$; then $tausigmatau^{-1}=rho$ by the claim.
For example, if $sigma=(1,3,2,4)(5,6)$ and $rho=(5,2,3,1)(6,4)$, then write
$$begin{array}{cccccc}
1&3&2&4&5&6\
5&2&3&1&6&4
end{array}$$
Then we let $tau$ be the permutation $1mapsto 5$, $3mapsto 2$, $2mapsto 3$, $4mapsto 1$, $5mapsto 6$, and $6mapsto 4$. Then by the claim above, $tausigmatau^{-1}=rho$. (Note. As Gerry Myerson notes, if we aren't working in all of $S_n$, we may not have $tau$ in whatever subgroup we happen to be working in; so there is an implicit assumption for the "if" part that we are working in $S_n$).
edited Jun 28 '11 at 4:24
answered Jun 28 '11 at 4:03
Arturo MagidinArturo Magidin
261k33585906
261k33585906
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Warning: the permutations are conjugate $bf in S_n$ if they have the same cycle structure. This may not be true in subgroups of $S_n$. For example, $A_4$ is the alternating group on 4 symbols, it consists of the even permutations in $S_4$. The elements $(1 2 3)$ and $(1 3 2)$ of $A_4$ have the same cycle structure, but they are not conjugate in $A_4$. That is, there are elements $g$ in $S_4$ such that $g^{-1}(1 2 3)g=(1 3 2)$, but there is no such element in $A_4$.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Thank you for your answer, sir. How can we see that for a cycle we have the equation $r(i_1,i_2,dots,i_k)r^{−1}=(r(i_1),r(i_2),dots,r(i_k))$?
$endgroup$
– Student
Jun 22 '14 at 13:30
1
$begingroup$
Why don't you post that as a question, instead of hiding it in a comment on an old answer?
$endgroup$
– Gerry Myerson
Jun 22 '14 at 23:08
$begingroup$
Very well, I'll ask my question in a separate post. I "hid" it in a comment becouse of this thread.
$endgroup$
– Student
Jun 23 '14 at 5:49
$begingroup$
@Student - where did you asked the question? I can't find it! I had to asked again in math.stackexchange.com/questions/1700180/… but no answer yet (for such a widely used formula no proof!).
$endgroup$
– Liebe
Mar 16 '16 at 14:42
$begingroup$
I don't remember, but you can look through my questions, @Liebe.
$endgroup$
– Student
Mar 18 '16 at 22:22
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Warning: the permutations are conjugate $bf in S_n$ if they have the same cycle structure. This may not be true in subgroups of $S_n$. For example, $A_4$ is the alternating group on 4 symbols, it consists of the even permutations in $S_4$. The elements $(1 2 3)$ and $(1 3 2)$ of $A_4$ have the same cycle structure, but they are not conjugate in $A_4$. That is, there are elements $g$ in $S_4$ such that $g^{-1}(1 2 3)g=(1 3 2)$, but there is no such element in $A_4$.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Thank you for your answer, sir. How can we see that for a cycle we have the equation $r(i_1,i_2,dots,i_k)r^{−1}=(r(i_1),r(i_2),dots,r(i_k))$?
$endgroup$
– Student
Jun 22 '14 at 13:30
1
$begingroup$
Why don't you post that as a question, instead of hiding it in a comment on an old answer?
$endgroup$
– Gerry Myerson
Jun 22 '14 at 23:08
$begingroup$
Very well, I'll ask my question in a separate post. I "hid" it in a comment becouse of this thread.
$endgroup$
– Student
Jun 23 '14 at 5:49
$begingroup$
@Student - where did you asked the question? I can't find it! I had to asked again in math.stackexchange.com/questions/1700180/… but no answer yet (for such a widely used formula no proof!).
$endgroup$
– Liebe
Mar 16 '16 at 14:42
$begingroup$
I don't remember, but you can look through my questions, @Liebe.
$endgroup$
– Student
Mar 18 '16 at 22:22
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Warning: the permutations are conjugate $bf in S_n$ if they have the same cycle structure. This may not be true in subgroups of $S_n$. For example, $A_4$ is the alternating group on 4 symbols, it consists of the even permutations in $S_4$. The elements $(1 2 3)$ and $(1 3 2)$ of $A_4$ have the same cycle structure, but they are not conjugate in $A_4$. That is, there are elements $g$ in $S_4$ such that $g^{-1}(1 2 3)g=(1 3 2)$, but there is no such element in $A_4$.
$endgroup$
Warning: the permutations are conjugate $bf in S_n$ if they have the same cycle structure. This may not be true in subgroups of $S_n$. For example, $A_4$ is the alternating group on 4 symbols, it consists of the even permutations in $S_4$. The elements $(1 2 3)$ and $(1 3 2)$ of $A_4$ have the same cycle structure, but they are not conjugate in $A_4$. That is, there are elements $g$ in $S_4$ such that $g^{-1}(1 2 3)g=(1 3 2)$, but there is no such element in $A_4$.
answered Jun 28 '11 at 4:20
Gerry MyersonGerry Myerson
146k8147299
146k8147299
1
$begingroup$
Thank you for your answer, sir. How can we see that for a cycle we have the equation $r(i_1,i_2,dots,i_k)r^{−1}=(r(i_1),r(i_2),dots,r(i_k))$?
$endgroup$
– Student
Jun 22 '14 at 13:30
1
$begingroup$
Why don't you post that as a question, instead of hiding it in a comment on an old answer?
$endgroup$
– Gerry Myerson
Jun 22 '14 at 23:08
$begingroup$
Very well, I'll ask my question in a separate post. I "hid" it in a comment becouse of this thread.
$endgroup$
– Student
Jun 23 '14 at 5:49
$begingroup$
@Student - where did you asked the question? I can't find it! I had to asked again in math.stackexchange.com/questions/1700180/… but no answer yet (for such a widely used formula no proof!).
$endgroup$
– Liebe
Mar 16 '16 at 14:42
$begingroup$
I don't remember, but you can look through my questions, @Liebe.
$endgroup$
– Student
Mar 18 '16 at 22:22
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Thank you for your answer, sir. How can we see that for a cycle we have the equation $r(i_1,i_2,dots,i_k)r^{−1}=(r(i_1),r(i_2),dots,r(i_k))$?
$endgroup$
– Student
Jun 22 '14 at 13:30
1
$begingroup$
Why don't you post that as a question, instead of hiding it in a comment on an old answer?
$endgroup$
– Gerry Myerson
Jun 22 '14 at 23:08
$begingroup$
Very well, I'll ask my question in a separate post. I "hid" it in a comment becouse of this thread.
$endgroup$
– Student
Jun 23 '14 at 5:49
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@Student - where did you asked the question? I can't find it! I had to asked again in math.stackexchange.com/questions/1700180/… but no answer yet (for such a widely used formula no proof!).
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– Liebe
Mar 16 '16 at 14:42
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I don't remember, but you can look through my questions, @Liebe.
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– Student
Mar 18 '16 at 22:22
1
1
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Thank you for your answer, sir. How can we see that for a cycle we have the equation $r(i_1,i_2,dots,i_k)r^{−1}=(r(i_1),r(i_2),dots,r(i_k))$?
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– Student
Jun 22 '14 at 13:30
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Thank you for your answer, sir. How can we see that for a cycle we have the equation $r(i_1,i_2,dots,i_k)r^{−1}=(r(i_1),r(i_2),dots,r(i_k))$?
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– Student
Jun 22 '14 at 13:30
1
1
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Why don't you post that as a question, instead of hiding it in a comment on an old answer?
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– Gerry Myerson
Jun 22 '14 at 23:08
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Why don't you post that as a question, instead of hiding it in a comment on an old answer?
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– Gerry Myerson
Jun 22 '14 at 23:08
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Very well, I'll ask my question in a separate post. I "hid" it in a comment becouse of this thread.
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– Student
Jun 23 '14 at 5:49
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Very well, I'll ask my question in a separate post. I "hid" it in a comment becouse of this thread.
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– Student
Jun 23 '14 at 5:49
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@Student - where did you asked the question? I can't find it! I had to asked again in math.stackexchange.com/questions/1700180/… but no answer yet (for such a widely used formula no proof!).
$endgroup$
– Liebe
Mar 16 '16 at 14:42
$begingroup$
@Student - where did you asked the question? I can't find it! I had to asked again in math.stackexchange.com/questions/1700180/… but no answer yet (for such a widely used formula no proof!).
$endgroup$
– Liebe
Mar 16 '16 at 14:42
$begingroup$
I don't remember, but you can look through my questions, @Liebe.
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– Student
Mar 18 '16 at 22:22
$begingroup$
I don't remember, but you can look through my questions, @Liebe.
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– Student
Mar 18 '16 at 22:22
add a comment |
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The intuitive way to see this is to realize that "conjugation" in a permutation group is the same as "renaming". Take some permutation; conjugate it by (1 2), the permutation that swaps 1 and 2; what's the result? Calculate a few examples, and you'll see that the result is the same as the original permutation with 1 and 2 changing roles.
Another good way to understand this is to separate the domains of the permutation and the conjugation. If $A$ is a set and $sigma$ is some permutation of the objects of $A$ (take $A={1,2,ldots, n}$ for example), imagine there's a new set $Z$ of the same cardinality as $A$ and a one-to-one, onto mapping $f:Zto A$. What is $f^{-1} sigma f$? It's a function on $Z$ which first maps everything to $A$, permutes according to $sigma$, and maps back along the same "mapping lines" as $f$. It should be relatively obvious that the result "does to $Z$ exactly what $sigma$ does to $A$". Again, working out a few small examples should help.
So, conjugation in $S_n$ is the same thing only when $Z$ happens to be the same set as $A$; the "names" and the "objects" are one and the same.
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
The intuitive way to see this is to realize that "conjugation" in a permutation group is the same as "renaming". Take some permutation; conjugate it by (1 2), the permutation that swaps 1 and 2; what's the result? Calculate a few examples, and you'll see that the result is the same as the original permutation with 1 and 2 changing roles.
Another good way to understand this is to separate the domains of the permutation and the conjugation. If $A$ is a set and $sigma$ is some permutation of the objects of $A$ (take $A={1,2,ldots, n}$ for example), imagine there's a new set $Z$ of the same cardinality as $A$ and a one-to-one, onto mapping $f:Zto A$. What is $f^{-1} sigma f$? It's a function on $Z$ which first maps everything to $A$, permutes according to $sigma$, and maps back along the same "mapping lines" as $f$. It should be relatively obvious that the result "does to $Z$ exactly what $sigma$ does to $A$". Again, working out a few small examples should help.
So, conjugation in $S_n$ is the same thing only when $Z$ happens to be the same set as $A$; the "names" and the "objects" are one and the same.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The intuitive way to see this is to realize that "conjugation" in a permutation group is the same as "renaming". Take some permutation; conjugate it by (1 2), the permutation that swaps 1 and 2; what's the result? Calculate a few examples, and you'll see that the result is the same as the original permutation with 1 and 2 changing roles.
Another good way to understand this is to separate the domains of the permutation and the conjugation. If $A$ is a set and $sigma$ is some permutation of the objects of $A$ (take $A={1,2,ldots, n}$ for example), imagine there's a new set $Z$ of the same cardinality as $A$ and a one-to-one, onto mapping $f:Zto A$. What is $f^{-1} sigma f$? It's a function on $Z$ which first maps everything to $A$, permutes according to $sigma$, and maps back along the same "mapping lines" as $f$. It should be relatively obvious that the result "does to $Z$ exactly what $sigma$ does to $A$". Again, working out a few small examples should help.
So, conjugation in $S_n$ is the same thing only when $Z$ happens to be the same set as $A$; the "names" and the "objects" are one and the same.
$endgroup$
The intuitive way to see this is to realize that "conjugation" in a permutation group is the same as "renaming". Take some permutation; conjugate it by (1 2), the permutation that swaps 1 and 2; what's the result? Calculate a few examples, and you'll see that the result is the same as the original permutation with 1 and 2 changing roles.
Another good way to understand this is to separate the domains of the permutation and the conjugation. If $A$ is a set and $sigma$ is some permutation of the objects of $A$ (take $A={1,2,ldots, n}$ for example), imagine there's a new set $Z$ of the same cardinality as $A$ and a one-to-one, onto mapping $f:Zto A$. What is $f^{-1} sigma f$? It's a function on $Z$ which first maps everything to $A$, permutes according to $sigma$, and maps back along the same "mapping lines" as $f$. It should be relatively obvious that the result "does to $Z$ exactly what $sigma$ does to $A$". Again, working out a few small examples should help.
So, conjugation in $S_n$ is the same thing only when $Z$ happens to be the same set as $A$; the "names" and the "objects" are one and the same.
answered Jun 28 '11 at 4:00
Alon AmitAlon Amit
10.6k3768
10.6k3768
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Suppose $rho=pisigmapi^{-1}$, for any $min Z$,
we have $rho^m=pisigma^mpi^{-1}$, i.e. $rho^mpi=pisigma^m$.
For a cycle $(i,sigma(i),ldots,sigma^{r-1}(i))$, we have
$$(pi(i),pisigma(i),ldots,pisigma^{r-1}(i))
=(j,rho(j),ldots,rho^{r-1}(j))$$
where $j=pi(i)$. This is intuitive, isn't it?
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
Suppose $rho=pisigmapi^{-1}$, for any $min Z$,
we have $rho^m=pisigma^mpi^{-1}$, i.e. $rho^mpi=pisigma^m$.
For a cycle $(i,sigma(i),ldots,sigma^{r-1}(i))$, we have
$$(pi(i),pisigma(i),ldots,pisigma^{r-1}(i))
=(j,rho(j),ldots,rho^{r-1}(j))$$
where $j=pi(i)$. This is intuitive, isn't it?
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Suppose $rho=pisigmapi^{-1}$, for any $min Z$,
we have $rho^m=pisigma^mpi^{-1}$, i.e. $rho^mpi=pisigma^m$.
For a cycle $(i,sigma(i),ldots,sigma^{r-1}(i))$, we have
$$(pi(i),pisigma(i),ldots,pisigma^{r-1}(i))
=(j,rho(j),ldots,rho^{r-1}(j))$$
where $j=pi(i)$. This is intuitive, isn't it?
$endgroup$
Suppose $rho=pisigmapi^{-1}$, for any $min Z$,
we have $rho^m=pisigma^mpi^{-1}$, i.e. $rho^mpi=pisigma^m$.
For a cycle $(i,sigma(i),ldots,sigma^{r-1}(i))$, we have
$$(pi(i),pisigma(i),ldots,pisigma^{r-1}(i))
=(j,rho(j),ldots,rho^{r-1}(j))$$
where $j=pi(i)$. This is intuitive, isn't it?
edited Apr 26 '12 at 9:06
Martin Sleziak
44.7k8117272
44.7k8117272
answered Apr 25 '12 at 23:48
JoshiwaJoshiwa
291
291
add a comment |
add a comment |
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Have you read a proof of this fact, and found it to be unintuitive?
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– Jonas Meyer
Jun 28 '11 at 3:56
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They're not: $(1 2) (1) = (1) (1 2) implies (1 2)$ is conjugate with $(1)$ even though they have different cycle structure.
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– Zaz
Nov 13 '17 at 22:13
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@Zaz That's not how conjugates are defined. If $a b = b c implies b^{-1} a b = c text{ for } a,b,c in G$ then $a$ and $c$ are said to be conjugates. You're example just shows that $(12)$ and $(12)$ are conjugates i.e. they lie in the same conjugacy class, which is trivial. For $(12)$ to be conjugate with $(1)$ you have to show the existence of some $g in G$ such that $g^{-1} (12) g = (1)$ and no such $g$ exists, hence $(12)$ and $(1)$ are not conjugates.
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– Aditya Sriram
Sep 15 '18 at 8:46